Mel Gibson says his wife could be going to hell

MSNBC ^ | 02/10/04 | Jeannette Walls

[evets]

Gibson was interviewed by the Herald Sun in Australia, and the reporter asked the star if Protestants are denied eternal salvation. “There is no salvation for those outside the Church,” Gibson replied. “I believe it.” He elaborated: “Put it this way. My wife is a saint. She’s a much better person than I am. Honestly. She’s, like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it’s just not fair if she doesn’t make it, she’s better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it.”

[sarasota]

So, in other words, your answer is "No".

[job]

That's what I was taught, and what I believe. If there was any more requirement, how could the theif on the cross go to Paradise with Christ?

[pissant]

No,
I'm pointing out that just because one calls or thinks of himself as "evangelical" does not necessarily merit praise. There are many charlatans, including the local "super church" pastor in my neighborhood, whose matching BMW's and armani suits should give the idiots in his church pause. But alas, they keep giving to this guy so they can attain salvation.

Of course, there are many true evangelicals, who have much more in common with Traditional Catholicism than with the "God wants you to be rich" crowd.

[Pyro7480]

I think pissant's comments were out of order, however, you were the one who was accusing the Catholic Church of being a cult.

[Pyro7480]

Thanks for clarifying your statement.

[Little Bill]

My father died when I was about high school age and I was exiled to Mass, my Mother who is a Staunch Irish Catholic, my personal faith is a compromise between parents, took one look at the Mass Government School system and was horrified, remember this is 1960.

Ma, who knew or was related to a lot of movers in the Archdiocese, though for the good of my mind and soul, that I should get a classical education, thus St Johns. It was not so much that I was ostracized is that I did not fit.

My family had been out West for about a hundred and twenty years at the time had developed certain political ideas that didn't fit in Mass at that time or this. That and my disgust at the lack of thinking and sycophancy of my classmates caused some problems, largely of my own making.

[Maximilian]

Could you please provide the Catechism citations that support this? Thanks!

Post #119 has done a good job with the citations.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Mel Gibson is a traditional Catholic who attends the Latin Mass and doesn't listen to the teachings of Vatican II or Pope John Paul II -- because they are in contradiction to the constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years. Calling a Catholic doctrine "medieval" is a compliment, not a criticism, since the truth never changes.

What about the "truth" that the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine? That's been a mainstay of Roman Catholic doctrine for centuries, so either that "truth" has changed, or the "truth" about salvation only being available through the Roman Catholic Church has changed, or Pope John Paul II is a false Pope. Pick one.

[lady lawyer]

I'm a Mormon, and I know they don't recognize our baptisms. But that's okay, we don't recognize theirs, either. I'm still proud to work alongside my Catholic friends to support the family and other important issues.

The Left is very anxious to cause divisions amongst those of us on the Right. We shouldn't be dumb enough to let them.

BTW, I very much appreciate those Jews like Michael Medved and Daniel Lapin who have defended the right of Mel Gibson and the rest of us to believe our own scriptures.

[CWW]

I am sorry, but you are wrong. That statement has not been Dogma for years. Just read Pope John Paul II's Book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" and you will see that your statement is born out of ignorance and prejudice.

The Catholic Church does, in fact, teach that other Christian have access to the Truth and that there can be salvation outside the Catholic Church. The Church, however, believes that the Catholic Tradition has a "Fullness of Truth" that is not present outside of the Catholic Church. That is not the same as the "no salvation outside the Church" statement.

Mel is from a more conservative sect of the Catholic Church

I hope that this clear up the matter for you.

[Unam Sanctam]

There is a lot of misunderstanding in this thread about the teaching "outside the Church there is no salvation". Such a phrase does not mean no salvation outside the visible Church, for as St. Paul teaches, those who follow the law of God written in their hearts may be saved in Christ -- i.e., they will be invisibly connected with the Catholic Church. This teaching of the Church is not a "post-Conciliar" novelty, I will quote Pius XI:

"On the grounds of Faith it must be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church no one can attain salvation; this is the one ark of salvation; he who does not enter into it, will perish in the flood. In the same way, however, it must be accepted as certain that those who labor in invincible ignorance of the true religion are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord". From the allocution "Singulari quadam:, December 9, 1854. In the Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur moerore", August 10, 1863, the same Pontiff wrote: "Since God..., out of His overwhelming goodness and mercy, will not permit anyone to be punished in eternal sufferwho is not found guilty of voluntary crimes".

I shall also quote Tanqueray's "Manual of Dogmatic Theology" (1959):

Outside the Church there is no salvation: In order to understand this conclusion correctly we must distinguish between what is necessary according to a necessity of means and what is necessary according to a necessity of precept.

The necessity for belonging to the Church is not only a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means, for Pius XI declared: "On the ground of Faith it is to be firmly held that ouside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it, will perish in the flood." The comparison with the Ark, the means of salvation from death at the time of the Flood, plainly shows the necessity as a necessity of means.

Necessity of means, however, is not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In certain particular circumstances, for example, in the case of invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership in the Church can be supplied by the desire for this membership. It is not necessary that this be explicitly present; it can be included in a willingness and readiness to fulfill the will of God. In this way those who are outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation. That souls who, in innocent ignorance, do not know the true Church of Christ, but who are, nevertheless, ready to bow to the demands of the divine Will, are not to be cast out, springs from Divine Justice and from the doctrine of God's general will of salvation: this is clearly proved in Scripture (I Timothy, II, 4).

Therefore: Whoever culpably remains outside the Church to the end of life cannot be saved; he is culpable who does not seek the truth when he is in serious doubt, and, a fortiori, he is culpable who knowlingly and willingly does not enter the Church when he recognizes it as true. ...

Whoever inculpably remains outside the Church can be saved provided he belong to the Church through faith and charity, or through perfect contrition.

Scripture teaches that many Gentiles, for example, Job and the Ninivites, were saved. Besides, every adult can elicit an act of perfect charity and so can acquire habitual grace. This is required for salvation and this is sufficient.

[Gamecock]

“Put it this way. My wife is a saint. She’s a much better person than I am. Honestly. She’s, like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it’s just not fair if she doesn’t make it, she’s better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it.”

If that is what he believes he must be real impressed with Calvinists.

[MississippiMan]

This is a transparent attempt, particularly the headline, to paint Gibson as a flake. Never mind that millions of other devout Catholics (errantly) believe the same thing. The media's attempt to kill the film didn't work, so now they'll try to destroy his credibility instead. Satan is really in a tizzy over THE PASSION.

MM

[Just mythoughts]

Mr. Gibson is not the only one who is in for a shock about what is actually WRITTEN.

No wonder he is getting flack for his passion, he forgot who it is that decides who goes to hell and for what.

[WKB]

the "God wants you to be rich" crowd.

The one commandment I can keep
Matt. 26:11 The poor you will always have with you,

[Future Snake Eater]

My soon-to-be wife is the exact same way. She was raised Catholic but grew very disenfranchised with the whole thing. I've been to Catholic Mass a few times, just to see what it was about (I've been to pretty much ever denomination there is), and it felt depressing.

I know a lot of Catholics were up in arms over the movie "Dogma" but there was a line in it that I saw to be true, "Catholics don't celebrate their faith, they mourn it." The same seemed to be true at a Methodist service I just went to not too long ago.

Why go to church to be depressed or to recite aphorisms time and time again? Why not actually learn what the Bible says? Why not get excited about the opportunities that lie before us as Christians?

It's not that I dislike our Catholic brothers and sisters, but I sure don't understand where they're coming from.

[Maximilian]

I guess the University of Notre Dame could be considered a well credentialed Catholic university that is qualified to teach church doctrine.

Not by anyone who knows better. Well-informed Catholics are aware the Notre Dame is a hotbed of heresy and apostasy. The religion department is headed by the notorious dissenter Richard McBrien.

We were never told there was no salvation outside the Catholic church.

There's no need to wonder why the Catholic Church is in such bad shape in the United States if the young men and women who should be our next generation of Catholic leaders are being given nothing but heresy.

My sister-in-law went to Notre Dame. She told me that it wasn't until after she left the university that she realized that every Mass she attended there was invalid. They always used invalid matter for the bread. Only wheat and water are allowed as ingredients.

[TheBattman]

She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it’s just not fair if she doesn’t make it, she’s better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it.”

Hmmm....Mel hasn't been reading his bible, has he? Other than for the account of Jesus last 12 hours on earth.

What "chair" is he speaking of? The Pope? Which represents more authority - the Pope or the Bible?

[Bosco]

As a former Roman Catholic, now disciple of Jesus,

Are Catholics not disciples of Jesus, or is that a name of a denomination?

I knew someone would pick up on that, and it's a good question.

Firstly, I am not referring to any denomination although there are a few denominations that are called "Disciples of Christ". I'm not a member of that denomination.

I am a non-denominational Christian. Anyone who holds to the Nicene Creed I would consider my brother/sister in the faith.

As far as "Are Catholics not disciples of Jesus", that is not an easy question to answer because it deals with an individual's relationship with God.

Just because someone goes to church doesn't make them a Christian or a disciple. It's not limited to Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist or any denomination. The issue is that in order to spend eternity with God after you die, you need to have your sin debt paid for. Jesus did that on the cross - have you asked for that forgiveness? In the Mass, one portion of it says that Jesus died for the sins of the world. Have you personalized it?

Sometimes the people who are most resistant to hearing that they need to have a personal reckoning with God are the ones who practice religion. They depend on rituals to handle an issue that needs to be handled once and for all without a ritual. With religion a person can say "I am good because I follow the rules of my church". With a contrite heart, a sinner says "I have sinned against you, Lord. Please forgive me."

From my readings of the Bible, it is the latter which God is looking for.

But to be a disciple of Jesus, that is a daily thing to do. Some people have their sins forgiven but never become a disciple of Jesus. I think the term is called "Fire Insurance".

Once people start getting into denominational tiffs it ceases to be all about Jesus, which is what it should be.

So, as a result I can worship with Roman Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans and Pentecostals. Pretty cool.

[missyme]

I am saying look at what this article is doing to cause an uproar with Christians on FR..I am taking it with a grain of salt...