Peggy Noonan: 'Passion' and Intrigue- The story of the Vatican and Mel Gibson's film gets curiouser

Opinion Journal ^ | 01/22/04 | Peggy Noonan

[Pelayo]

Do you ever read your Scriptural citations? Forget for the moment that in Matthew 18:18 Jesus was speaking to more than one. In Luke 10:16 Jesus was speaking to at least 70+. Were they all Popes?

This may come as a colossal surprise for you but the doctrine of infallibility doesn't ONLY apply to the Pope, it also applies to the whole Magisterium in Communion with the Pope. The Pope is only the head of the Church, who must give his Imprimatur to the acts of Church Councils and what not. The Pope also has a particular Charism that generally pertains to his definitions of doctrine formed by the Magisterium.

You should understand that I was not arguing for the Pope's special infallibility, that is a separate issue from the question of infallibility in the Magisterium, although linked to it obviously.

Here is how Vatican II explains the doctrine of infallibility in the teaching authority of the Church.

"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith"
(Lumen Gentium 25).

[OLD REGGIE]

This may come as a colossal surprise for you but the doctrine of infallibility doesn't ONLY apply to the Pope, it also applies to the whole Magisterium in Communion with the Pope.

It might come as a colossal surprise to you to learn that I know very well, and knew many years before you were born, what the doctrine of infallibility involves. Your snotty attitude of superiority is misguided.

What isn't a surprise to me is your penchant to dance and wiggle around the facts. Let's review the original question and your response:

(over3.....) Tell me, is the pope's infallibility merely "cultural" too?

And your response: "No I believe it is scriptural (Luke 10:16, Matt. 18:18)."

Please note the question specifically stated the infallibility of the Pope. Your response was to that specific question.

Your dancing and spinning that it includes the Magisterium fools no one.

Pay attention! ;-)

[Pelayo]

Please note the question specifically stated the infallibility of the Pope. Your response was to that specific question.

Your dancing and spinning that it includes the Magisterium fools no one.

Pay attention! ;-)

That is the manner in which I argue. The question of Papal Infallibility requires an understanding of the doctrine of infallibility in the Magisterium. As I said they are linked, but they are technically separate questions. Once you demonstrate the nature of infallibility in the teaching authority of the Church, the specific infallibility of the head of that teaching authority who was commanded by Christ to "Confirm the faith of your brothers," becomes a little more obvious.

I was employing a form of reverse socratic method of argumentation. I was setting up an argument for the scriptural nature of the Pope's infallibility by getting over30 to ask the right questions (i.e. “But that would not specifically apply to one man but the whole group of apostles, not Peter specifically.”)

I can set up an arguments any way I wish. Your complaint of my method doesn't disprove my point that the infallibility of the Pope, is connected to the infallibility of all the Magisterium which IS scriptural. Thus, the Pope's special Charism of infallibility is really just a logical outgrowth of the need for unity amongst the Princes of the Church, and attested to by Christ in other parts of the Bible. It might be said that the Pope's infallibility rests on the infallibility of the Magisterium, however that infallibility rests on unity of the Bishops with the Pope.