FReeper Reviews of Return of the King (Spoiler FILLED)

Dec 17,2003

[HairOfTheDog]

Lord of the Rings:
Return of the King!
FReeper reports and reviews thread

Beyond this point there be spoilers!

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[JenB]

I am not sure we're not reading too much into it. Gandalf's trying to cheer up a frightened hobbit. And Pippin's fate is, I'm sure, different than an Orc's...

[BibChr]

So maybe he's just lying to make him feel better? Maybe so; but that wouldn't make ME feel any better about the fabrication!

Dan
(c8

[HairOfTheDog]

"Tolkien was Catholic" doesn't really answer what I asked. So how would Tolkien have answered Pippin? Is there, in that Catholic view, an afterlife for Pippin? How do you answer an honest hobbit facing possible death in Middle Earth?

Or would Tolkien have not had Pippin ponder an afterlife in the first place?

[JenB]

Not lying. Just telling Pippin something that will be true for Pippin, but not for everyone else. I mean, if as a Christian you're talking to another Christian who's about to die, the conversation will be different than if you're talking to an unsaved person, right?

[BibChr]

I have no idea what he would have said. I am dealing with what movie-G did say, as opposed to what Tolkien-G never said. That's my point.

And before you say, "Well, then... he might've!", I will say that Gandalf equally might have told Pippin that if he did a good deed, he'd turn into a Real Boy. But he didn't. And to imply that glory and happiness await EVERYONE, as movie-G (to my memory) seemed to say, is equally untrue to anything I think Tolkien would have said.

Dan

[delapaz]

I think I read somewhere that men do come and are judged before Manwe after they die. And remember what Aragorn says to Arwen just before he dies.

[BibChr]

My conversation about life after death would be TOTALLY different with a saved person than with an unsaved, in terms of any promises or guarantees I'd stand to. But my point -- and I really don't understand how I'm failing to be clear -- is that my memory of movie-G is that he's saying/implying that this is what awaits EVERYONE. This is just what happens after death.

Dan

[JenB]

Yeah, it's weak, if you look at it that way - which admittedly is the way the filmmakers intended it.

I guess I'm just looking at how Tolkien might have intended a similar idea...

[delapaz]

I think Tolkein was intentionally vague on this subject in order to avoid these sorts of conversations ;-)

[JenB]

The conversations are fun!

I think I'm reading too much in but I thought it was a comforting speech, and close to accurate in Tolkien's world, as specifically for the ringbearers and elves, maybe.

[HairOfTheDog]

I thought it was a comforting speech

I did too.

[Sabertooth]

I liked the way it finished.... I think the end was really well done.

Did you see the reveal of the Elven Rings? I didn't.

The significance of who's getting on the Swan Boat at the Gray Havens is nowhere explained.

Pacing, schmacing, it's the end of the the final movie in the Trilogy; the Age of the Rings has passed. Thirty seconds of reveal would have left this scene far more complete and satisfying.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yeah - we talked about that! That nowhere in the movies was it brought out that Elrond and Gandalf were ring-bearers... though there was a vague reference in the voiceover at the end that all the ringbearers had come to leave. And in the book.... We found out at the end who bore the other two elven rings. And then it had made sense.... why Rivendell and Lothlorien (though we knew that one) had such a power and Grace.

The marketing people at Weta created and sold replica Elven rings which were at this point never shown on screen.... wonder if it will be in the extended.

There is much still to be seen that I look forward to in the extended. Another wedding, some other pieces... This was just the really long trailer! ;~D

[delapaz]

You got to give Gandalf his props. It is really hard to do a comforting speech when you have 100,000 Trolls and Orcs pounding on the door just outside.

[HairOfTheDog]

Yes.... I do give that to him.... this is a tough crowd to please! ;~D

[ican'tbelieveit]

They showed Gandalf's ring at the end. On his left hand, a big red ring as he was leaving with Frodo and the elves.

[HairOfTheDog]

Tolkientown Store - Gandalf's Ring

Tolkientown Store - Elrond's Ring

Whether they are mentioned in the EE is still to be seen!

[BibChr]

It isn't a FReeper review, but this is interesting, by a convert:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/Critic_Review/Guardian_Film_of_the_week/0,4267,1109755,00.html

I love this line: "No flabber has been left ungasted by Mr Jackson's mighty battle sequences, nor no gob unsmacked."

Indeed not!

Dan

[JenB]

The Elven rings are in the intro to FotR. You can certainly see Galadriel's at points in Lothlorien, not sure about Elrond's. And I remember seeing Gandalf's at the Havens.

[JenB]

Thanks for the link. But the guy... misses the point, I think, probably from not seeing the books.

He complains that the only person to die is Theoden, not understanding that Frodo's leaving the Shire is just as great a sacrifice in it's way. He complains that there is no visible source of evil without Saruman, seemingly unable to see that Sauron is that source... the other sacrifices made are no less.

It's not about who dies, it's about who loses what. For some, it's their life, for others, power or comfort or a cherished desire...

But he does like the movie. And that line you excerpted was great.