[FLT-bird]

AI response: "In summary, Confederate authorities arrested and tried numerous Southerners for political crimes during the Civil War, and the outcomes varied based on individual cases and circumstances.",/i>

And yet in comparison to Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corupus......

"Davis . . . possessed the authority to suspend the writ of habeas corpus for a total of only sixteen months. During most of that time he exercised this power more sparingly than did his counterpart in Washington. The rhetoric of southern libertarians about executive tyranny thus seems overblown." (McPherson, The Battle Cry of Freedom, p. 435)

In his defense and whitewashing of Lincoln's civil liberties abuses even Lincoln apologist Mark Neely, Jr., author of The Fate of Liberty, noted that in Fort Lafayette (aka “the American Bastille”) and in other dungeons where political prisoners where held, "Handcuffs and hanging by the wrists were rare [but not nonexistent], but in the summer of 1863 the army had developed a water torture that came to be used routinely" (p. 110) Repeatedly, whenever Congress asked for information on the arrests, he replied that it was not in the public interest to furnish the information (p. 302).

The Tyrant Lincoln imprisoned somewhere between 13,000 and 38,000 people often without charge or trial - or with "trial" only before military tribunals.

It's odd the lengths our dedicated Lost Cause propagandists will go to deny a clear fact of history -- The Confederacy's May 6, 1861 Declaration of War against the United States. This is the actual Confederate Declaration of War on May 6, 1861.

It seems our dedicated PC Revisionists will go to any lengths to lie in order to push their false narrative.

Neither side made any formal declaration of war in the Civil War. The Confederacy did not declare war on the U.S. - it took control of federal property and demanded the evacuation of Fort Sumter. It made clear its intent to fight defensively - to defend its sovereignty.

https://www.google.com/search?q=did+the+confederacy+officially+declare+war+on+the+union&sca_esv=0cf1a99061b4d4b8&ei=_IfPZc6nLaO3wN4PwMCloAo&ved=0ahUKEwjOlYHmnrCEAxWjG9AFHUBgCaQQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=did+the+confederacy+officially+declare+war+on+the+union&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiN2RpZCB0aGUgY29uZmVkZXJhY3kgb2ZmaWNpYWxseSBkZWNsYXJlIHdhciBvbiB0aGUgdW5pb24yChAAGEcY1gQYsAMyChAAGEcY1gQYsAMyChAAGEcY1gQYsAMyChAAGEcY1gQYsAMyChAAGEcY1gQYsAMyChAAGEcY1gQYsAMyChAAGEcY1gQYsAMyChAAGEcY1gQYsANI8RVQqQVYqRNwAXgBkAEAmAEAoAEAqgEAuAEDyAEA-AEBiAYBkAYI&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Waging war against the United States is treason, for any American citizen, which certainly included union states like Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri. Why would anyone want to deny the obvious?

Indeed, why would anyone want to deny the obvious?

If you bring these [Confederate] leaders to trial it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution secession is not rebellion. Lincoln wanted Davis to escape, and he was right. His capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one.” Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, July 1867 (Foote, The Civil War, Vol. 3, p. 765)

“If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not a rebellion. His [Jefferson Davis] capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason” Chief Justice Salmon P Chase [as quoted by Herman S. Frey, in Jefferson Davis, Frey Enterprises, 1977, pp. 69-72]

It was not a ruling in 1861 and the US Constitution does allow for suspension of habeas corpus "in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. " Art 1, Sect 9

the Chief justice of the SCOTUS ruled that way in ex parte Merryman and Habeas Corpus may in any event only be suspended by Congress - not unilaterally by the President and not when the courts are functioning. This was just Lincoln acting as an unconstitutional tyrant again.

"14,401 Union civilians arrested by Lincoln administration." "At least 2,672 civilians were subject to military arrest in the Confederacy over the course of its history, although this is likely an undercount given the incompleteness of records."[41] So, proportionately, relatively speaking -- Union arrests are said to be 14,401 out of 22.5 million is one arrested for every 1,562 citizens. In the Confederacy, at least 2,672 arrested out of 5.5 million whites is one arrested for every 2,058 citizens. But since Confederate records are spottier than Union records and many were simply drafted rather than arrested, it's easy to say that proportionately, Confederates arrested as many Southerners as the Union arrested northerners, without habeas corpus.

its easy to say that....if you want to lie. The arrests in the Union vary between 13,000 at a low end and 38,000 at the high end. And don't pretend dissenters weren't simply dragooned into the Union army. So you can forget about that little dodge.

Naw, the only other confirmation came from Crazy-Roger Taney himself, who claimed to be afraid of being arrested. But he never was, so it's just another lunatic fantasy of pro-Confederates.

Nah. Lincoln did it and people other than Taney knew about it. You just don't want to admit it because its inconvenient for you.

That's just more nonsense...

Nah. Your denial is just more nonsense.

Even your own Abbeville Press doesn't say Lincoln shut down 100 disloyal newspapers

Yes he did.

"The censorship of newspapers via the Post Office Department first took place in the summer of 1861 after a New York grand jury handed down a decision stating that certain Northern newspapers were expressing Southern sentiments, thereby making them traitorous. On August 22, the Department responded to this decision by ordering all New York postmasters to refrain from mailing these newspapers, which included the Journal of Commerce, Day Book, Freeman’s Journal, News, and the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. While the censorship of mails was initially prompted by an entity outside of the Post Office, a state court, the Department also censored papers on its own. By the end of 1861, twelve more newspapers had been censored from the mail by the orders of Postmaster General Blair.(7)"

over 100 opposition Newspapers. He even ordered the Army to shut down some of them by military force.

They were guilty of publishing forged documents intended to disrupt the Union war efforts.

Uh huh. Sure. Everybody that opposed Lincoln's policy committed a "crime". No doubt.

Ohio Democrat Congressman Vallandigham was arrested and tried by a military tribunal for the crime of violating General Ambrose E. Burnside's General Order Number 38, which warned that the "habit of declaring sympathies for the enemy" would not be tolerated.

Which is blatantly unconstitutional.

The military court sentenced Vallandigham to prison for the war's duration. Pres. Lincoln released Vallandigham from prison and exiled him to the Confederacy.

"trial" before military tribunal is once again blatantly unconstitutional.

Here BroJoeK tries his usual red herring defense of comparing anybody who disagreed with Lincoln's policies to people like Lord Haw Haw who made propaganda broadcasts for the enemy during war. These are of course, radically different things.

The numbers are disputed: "The official death toll for Confederate prisoners at Camp Douglas is given by several sources as 4,454.[217][218]" "The majority of the deaths at the camp had been caused by typhoid fever and pneumonia. The prisoners arrived in a weakened condition, making them vulnerable to disease; at the camp they suffered filthy conditions, an inadequate sewer system, harshly cold weather, and lack of sufficient heat and clothing.[81] " "...In the aftermath of the war, Camp Douglas, though not exclusively, sometimes came to be described as the North's "Andersonville" for its poor conditions and large number of deaths.[230] Camp Douglas was one of the longest operating and largest prisons in the North. Although the number of prisoners who died there was more than at other locations, the percentage of prisoners who died at Camp Douglas was similar to most other Union prisoner of war camps.[231]

Surprise Surprise the US Federal government systematically undercounted the death toll and whitewashed the whole thing. Nobody was ever tried for running this infamous death camp or the deliberate murder of thousands of people they claimed were their fellow Americans. Read "To Die in Chicago" by Levy. It covers this infamous death camp in great detail. https://www.amazon.com/Die-Chicago-Confederate-Prisoners-Douglas/dp/1565543319

the Confederate Mound in Chicago is the largest mass grave in the entire western hemisphere.

The Chicago doctors who inspected the prison in 1863 called Camp Douglas an “extermination camp.” What George Levy’s meticulous research, including newly discovered hospital records, has uncovered is not a pretty picture. The story of Camp Douglas is one of brutal guards, deliberate starvation of prisoners, neglect of the sick, sadistic torture, murder, corruption at all levels, and a beef scandal reaching into the White House.

As a result of the overcrowding and substandard provisions, disease ran rampant and the mortality rate soared. By the thousands, prisoners needlessly died of pneumonia, smallpox, and other maladies. Most were buried in unmarked mass graves. The exact number of those who died is impossible to discern because of the Union’s haphazard recordkeeping and general disregard for the deceased.

Among the most shocking revelations are such forms of torture as hanging prisoners by their thumbs, hanging them by their heels and then whipping them, and forcing prisoners to sit with their exposed buttocks in the ice and snow.

The Confederate Camp Andersonville never saw such gratuitous barbarity.

The death rate of prisoners at Camp Douglas was lower than at Andersonville and the conditions at Camp Douglas were better.[44]

You get to this lie, ONLY if you believe the systematic undercounting of deaths at Camp Douglas.

If any one camp could be called the "Andersonville of the North," it would more likely be Elmira Prison at Elmira, New York where the deaths per thousand prisoners were 241.0 versus 44.1 at Camp Douglas.[231][232]"

Hellmira was another infamous death camp. So was Point Lookout in Maryland.

And yet, according to census numbers Native Americans in Minnesota were around 1.2% of the population in 1860, in 1880 and today. We need not doubt that they were mistreated, but words like "genocide" are a bit far fetched.

And yet this does nothing to refute the historical record of treaty violations, deliberate starvation, ethnic cleansing and mass murder committed by the Lincoln administration.

And still, despite well knowing it, you blind yourself to the real truth, which is that, by his own confession on April 3, 1861, Jefferson Davis intended to start Civil War at Forts Sumter and Pickens, regardless of what Lincoln did or didn't do to "provoke" it.

And yet despite knowing it for certain, you continue to try to dishonestly deny that Lincoln deliberately started the war and that he did so without the consent of Congress.

[BroJoeK]

FLT-bird quoting: "Davis . . . possessed the authority to suspend the writ of habeas corpus for a total of only sixteen months.
During most of that time he exercised this power more sparingly than did his counterpart in Washington.
The rhetoric of southern libertarians about executive tyranny thus seems overblown." (McPherson, The Battle Cry of Freedom, p. 435)"

Other historians disagree:

"Civil War historian Mark E. Neely Jr. suggests that "there seems to be no difference in the arrest rate in those periods when the Confederate Congress refuse to authorization suspension of the writ of habeas corpus and those periods was authorized. ... civilian prisoners trickled into Confederate military prisons whether the writ of habeas corpus was suspended or not."[41]""

FLT-bird: "The Tyrant Lincoln imprisoned somewhere between 13,000 and 38,000 people often without charge or trial - or with "trial" only before military tribunals."

While the "tyrant" Jefferson Davis imprisoned no fewer than 2,687 Southerners with or without suspension of habeas corpus.
If we allow for a number of missing Confederate records, these percentages are relatively the same when compared to Union or Confederate populations.

FLT-bird: "Neither side made any formal declaration of war in the Civil War.
The Confederacy did not declare war on the U.S. - it took control of federal property and demanded the evacuation of Fort Sumter.
It made clear its intent to fight defensively - to defend its sovereignty."

I gave you the link, you can read it yourself, there was an actual Confederate congress Declaration of War on May 6, 1861.
Prior to Confederate Declaration of War, there was no Union "invasion" of the Confederacy and after the declaration, every Union citizen who gave "aid and comfort" to Confederates was guilty, by Constitution's definition, of treason.

FLT-bird quoting: " 'If you bring these [Confederate] leaders to trial it will condemn the North, for by the Constitution secession is not rebellion.
Lincoln wanted Davis to escape, and he was right.
His capture was a mistake.
His trial will be a greater one.'
Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, July 1867 (Foote, The Civil War, Vol. 3, p. 765)"

Chase's argument here is spurious, specious and politically motivated, though after the war was over, perhaps for the best.
Chase's key nonsense is in claiming, "secession is not rebellion", since it was not secession alone which caused Civil War, but rather secession mixed with rebellion -- the Confederate assault on Fort Sumter -- which turned a political argument into a military war.
And after the Confederate Declaration of War on May 6, 1861, the entire issue was mute.

FLT-bird: "the Chief justice of the SCOTUS ruled that way in ex parte Merryman and Habeas Corpus may in any event only be suspended by Congress - not unilaterally by the President and not when the courts are functioning.
This was just Lincoln acting as an unconstitutional tyrant again."

Naw, it wasn't a SCOTUS ruling, it was only Crazy-Roger Taney babbling nonsense as a circuit court judge.
SCOTUS never ruled on it during the war.

FLT-bird: "Its easy to say that....if you want to lie.
The arrests in the Union vary between 13,000 at a low end and 38,000 at the high end.
And don't pretend dissenters weren't simply dragooned into the Union army.
So you can forget about that little dodge."

This source says:

" Even so, the lowest estimate is 13,535 arrests from February 15, 1862, to the end of the war. [3]
At least 866 others occurred from the beginning of the war until February 15, 1862.
Therefore, at least 14,401 civilians were arrested by the Lincoln administration.
If one takes the population of the North during the Civil War as 22.5 million (using the 1860 census and counting West Virginia but not Nevada), then one person out of every 1,563 in the North was arrested during the Civil War.[4]"

Do the math for Confederate arrests and the results come out pretty much the same.

FLT-bird on alleged arrest warrant for Crazy-Roger: "Nah.
Lincoln did it and people other than Taney knew about it.
You just don't want to admit it because its inconvenient for you."

So you repeatedly claim, but without ever providing a verifiable primary source for your claims.

FLT-bird quoting: "over 100 opposition Newspapers.
He even ordered the Army to shut down some of them by military force."

And what about the others?
The answer is, he didn't shut them down.
They remained free to continue publishing.

The US Post Office, however, did not deliver their treasonous materials.
Nor is there any evidence of Confederate authorities ever allowing publishers treasonous to them to operate.

FLT-bird referring to the arrest and trial of Ohio Democrat Congressman Vallandingham: "Which is blatantly unconstitutional."

Not at the time.

FLT-bird "Confederate Mound in Chicago is the largest mass grave in the entire western hemisphere."

The numbers of dead only exceeded, perhaps, by those at Andersonville, Georgia.
Worth noticing that Andersonville's death toll of 13,000 happened over just 15 months of operation, or nearly 900 per month on average.
By contrast, at Camp Douglas, the official death toll of 4,415 happened over 39 months of operation, or just over 100 per month average.
So, even if we contemplate your higher speculation of 6,000 total deaths, it's still just 150 per month, compared to nearly 900 per month at Andersonville, Georgia.

FLT-bird quoting: "The death rate of prisoners at Camp Douglas was lower than at Andersonville and the conditions at Camp Douglas were better.[44]

"You get to this lie, ONLY if you believe the systematic undercounting of deaths at Camp Douglas."

Nooooo... even if we contemplate your alleged 6,000 Confederate POW deaths at Camp Douglas, that is still only around 150 per month over 39 months from February 1862 through May 1865.
At Andersonville Union prisoner deaths averaged nearly 900 per month for 15 months = 13,000 total.

FLT-bird on Minnesota Native Americans: "And yet this does nothing to refute the historical record of treaty violations, deliberate starvation, ethnic cleansing and mass murder committed by the Lincoln administration."

There is no evidence the "Lincoln administration" committed any crime against Minnesota Native Americans.
The root cause appears to be a two-month delay in Federal payments to reservation Indians, possibly from corrupt agents, accompanied by local merchants' refusal to extend credit to starving Indians.
Nothing in the tragic events there suggest that Lincoln was somehow personally responsible.

If you want a rough equivalency, we could personally blame Jefferson Davis for the Lawrence, Kansas massacre in August, 1863.
What sense would that make?