Ukraine Map Study

Maps grabbed from the internet | March 20, 2022 | Matthew Bracken

[BillyBoy]

Interesting. I just googled and the Senate voted 91-2 to admit Macedonia as a member of NATO. The two NAY votes were Rand Paul and Mike Lee:

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1161/vote_116_1_00327.htm

I would have been a third NAY vote and argued it purely from a geographic perspective: “Let me know when you get a border with the Atlantic Ocean, and then I will consider your membership application.”

[Gaffer]

Give Hawaii back? Make it a separate country? YES! I support it. Two less Democrat Senators and a whole lot less trouble.

[Impy]

It’s pretty obvious why Putin doesn’t want Ukraine to join NATO, not cause NATO has ANY chance of ever invading Russia or is somehow otherwise “a threat” (LOL) but because if they were in a military alliance that obligated the US to come to their aid, that would be the end of his efforts to take over the country.

I think people in Crimea and Donbas as well want to be with Russia and that’s fine with me but clearly he has designs on the entire country and we can probably assume he’d love to take over whatever Russian neighbor he could.

I think sovereign nations can do what they want, including join NATO. I see no reason to deny membership to any European country including landlocked ones (the name of the organization doesn’t really matter) so long as they are willing to pay their fair share in military spending. It’s entirely reasonable that countries over there want to join if that protects them from being forcibly annexed into the Russian empire.

I only wish these countries didn’t also want to join the horrid EU but that’s their choice if their citizens vote in favor.

[AuH2ORepublican]

All of the word’s waters that are not surrounded by land (such as lakes) are divided into one of four oceans (there is no such thing as a “Southern Ocean” or “Antarctic Ocean”; if you think that there is, please tell me its geographic boundaries without using arbitrary lines of latitude). Just like the Gulf of Mexico, Long Island Sound, Caribbean Sea, English Channel, etc. are part of the Atlantic Ocean, so are the Mediterranean Sea (and the smaller seas within it, including the Adriatic, the Aegean, etc.) and the Black Sea (and the Sea of Azov, etc.). And since the dividing line between the North Atlantic Ocean and the South Atlantic Ocean is the Equatorial Counter Current (which runs from about Venezuela to about Liberia), the Mediterranean Sea is clearly part of the North Atlantic Ocean.

So, while North Macedonia is landlocked (as are NATO members Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Luxembourg and Hungary), the external waters to its west, southwest, south, southeast and east are part of the North Atlantic Ocean; in fact, the countries longest river, the Vardar, empties into the Aegean Sea less than 50 miles from the North Macedonia-Greece border. There is no geographic reason to exclude North Macedonia from NATO.

[BillyBoy]

I'm not sure what Rand Paul and Mike Lee's reasons for opposing Macedonia's entry into NATO was (maybe they're totally against NATO itself "on principle" or something, although NATO isn't nearly as bad as the EU and the UN).

As I noted I'd oppose their entry purely for geographic reasons (if Ireland petitioned to join NATO I'd vote "yes"), though having Rand Paul and Mike Lee as the other two solo "no" votes reinforces the idea that my position is the correct one. :-)

NATO's charter is a confusing one, the whole point of the organization is that its by nature a transatlantic coalition, but the charter only specifies rules for European countries to join. I suppose they figured it would be a non-issue since the U.S. and Canada together make up 95% of the land on the North American side of the "north Atlantic", but that puts the situation in political limbo if some tiny island nation like Antigua and Barbuda ever wanted to join, or if Greenland ever became independent and wanted to sign up for NATO on their own (and that would actually make sense since an independent Greenland really wouldn't have the manpower to defend itself in a war)

Another fun fact: apparently the UN charter and rules are silent on the mechanism for a country to LEAVE the UN (I got flamed on FR about a decade back for saying I was against having the USA leave the UN, though I'd certainly support us leaving the absolutely horrible UN "Human Rights" Council). NATO, the EU, etc., have methods for countries to leave, but the UN specifically avoided spelling out a way to do so, because they didn't want a country using "we'll leave the UN if we don't get our way on so-and-so-issue!" as political blackmail. Indonesia apparently tried to leave the UN a few decades ago, and just issued a statement saying they wouldn't show up for meetings anymore. The UN "regretfully accepted" their decision, then Indonesia ended up with a new government and "rejoined" a few months later, and the UN just acted like they had never left in the first place.

[BillyBoy]

BTW, interesting little clause here... geography is indeed still instrumental to NATO’s operations, especially in Article 6, which specifies its obligations are limited to activity in the north Atlantic. For example, if NATO retroactively existed in 1941, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor would NOT require all the other NATO countries to retaliate:

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Article 6 states that the treaty covers only member states’ territories in Europe and North America, Turkey and islands in the North Atlantic north of the Tropic of Cancer, plus French Algeria. It was the opinion in August 1965 of the US State Department, the US Defense Department and the legal division of NATO that an attack on the U.S. state of Hawaii would not trigger the treaty, but an attack on the other 49 would. The Spanish cities of Ceuta and Melilla on the North African shore are thus not under NATO protection in spite of Moroccan claims to them. Legal experts have interpreted that other articles could cover the Spanish North African cities but this take has not been tested in practice. This is also why events such as the Balyun airstrikes did not trigger Article 5, as the Turkish troops that were attacked were in Syria, not Turkey.

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[AuH2ORepublican]

If Article 6 has been interpreted to exclude attacks on Hawaii, then it needs to be amended to clarify that any attack on U.S. territory needs to be covered, since the U.S. *is a freaking member of NATO*. Even dumber is that attacks on California, which like Hawaii borders the Pacific, are covered, but not attacks on Puerto Rico, which is on the Atlantic but just south of the Tropic of Cancer. And Ceuta and Melilla are in the Mediterranean Sea and are an integral part of Spain; how could attacks on those cities not trigger Section 6?

[BillyBoy]

I believe the ONLY time Article 6 has actually been activated in entire 70+ year history of NATO was in the aftermath of 9/11, when the terrorist attack on NYC was considered as an attack on the rest of NATO, and they responded accordingly during the War on Terror.

Article 6 seems to have a pretty narrow range to actually qualify. If was broad enough to mean "any and every hostile attack on any and every part of the territory of a NATO country for any and every reason", it would be activated routinely.

Article 6 is yet another reason why its a bad idea to have Turkey as a NATO country. Theoretically, if a western country were to reignite the Crusades and overthrow the repressive Islamofascist regime there and allow the indigenous Christians to return, Turkey could invoke "Article 6" and demand that the U.S., U.K., Spain, France, Canada, Poland, etc., all rush to their aide and expel the Christians and restore the Erdoğan regime.

[Towed_Jumper]

Very nice piece of work Travis...I’ve bookmarked for future reference.

[CodeToad]

“Imagine the U.S. military building a “military cathedral” in 2022. It would be dedicated to LGBTQ Trans Marxism, including St. Fauci, St. Obama, St. Alinsky and St. Sanger.”

Your prediction is reality: The USAF Academy is rebuilding the famous Christian chapel on campus.

“It serves as an all-faith center of worship for cadets and includes Protestant, Catholic, Jewish and Buddhist chapels, an All-Faiths Room, and a Falcon Circle (Wiccan) , each with its own entrance. The Chapel is capable of holding services in all rooms at one time.”

[semaj]

Thank you for the research and study of the history behind the creation of today’s Ukraine. I appreciate it greatly. Good to see your still active. As for me, Ive taken a respite from geo-politics. I fear at this time, only bloodshed can cure the nation’s s ills. Its the only thing that keep men honest.