Nigel Farage: I was wrong about Russia

YouTube ^ | 3 days ago | Nigel Farage

[CondoleezzaProtege]

Well, I was wrong. Putin has gone much further than I thought he would.

A consequence of EU and NATO expansion, which came to a head in 2014. It made no sense to poke the Russian bear with a stick.

These are dark days for Europe.

[ifinnegan]

“A consequence of EU and NATO expansion, which came to a head in 2014. It made no sense to poke the Russian bear with a stick.”

What nonsense.

It’s all on Putin and Russia.

All.

They attacked. They invaded. They started the violence and murder.

[algore]

I was a fan of Nigel back when they let him out once every few months to give a speech in the EU parliament

like this for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY

I wish some of our elected could give a speech.

[jimwatx]

Nigel is still a politician so no surprise he would put a little distance between him and Putin at this point, otherwise he would be portrayed as too fringe. He has to be careful as to what he says, and that’s apparent here.

[packrat35]

The Cuban missle crisis comes to mind but many here on FR seem to be history impaired.

We didn’t like Russian missles on our doorstep either.

[Alas Babylon!]

Every group of humans on the planet have a score to settle and a bone to pick with their neighbors when you think about it.

I remember seeing some guys in Northern Ireland back in the late 70s, with huge banner on it that said, “Remember 1568!” or some such time.

I thought, wait a minute, how old are these guys? No way they remember back to those days!

But isn’t crap like that so typical?

[Twink]

LOL exactly

[Twink]

Well said.

[Chickensoup]

What would you say if leftist sponsored two coups d’etat in Canada, each time ousting a US-friendly government, and replacing it with an anti-US, pro-
Marxist government?

Close. This is what really happened with deep state

[Lazamataz]

LOL

Being as you are a Chinese citizen, shouldn't that be 'ROR'?

[daniel1212]

"Putin is an invade-the-world, invite-the-world imperialist, he’s just the Russian version. Every other European country got the memo after 1945 that 1.) imperialism was dumb and self-defeating, doubly so if you are trying to cobble together an empire within Europe, 2.) starting intra-European wars is the greatest crime against humanity imaginable. Russia wants buffer states? Why doesn’t Germany get buffer states then? Why doesn’t France get buffer states? Buffer states are for Russia’s security?"

Too true. Putin sympathizers blame NATO’s decision to expand from 16 countries at the height of the Cold War to 30 today as justification for Putin's militaristic conquests, given the nature of the Bear at heart NATO is warranted But as I have said before, after the fall of the Soviet Union the West naively believed that democracy itself is the answer, which it is not, as only insomuch as the voters are wise Godly will they elect the same, while the Russian mafia much filled the void of Soviet corruption. And the morally decaying West failed to really rehabilitate and develop Russia and seemed to disrespect it in the Kosovo intervention.

And this sympathetic piece relates to it.

The Russian military was a mess. Instead of seizing the opportunity to create a new European order that included Russia, President Bill Clinton and his foreign-policy team squandered it by deciding to expand NATO threateningly toward that country’s borders. Such a misbegotten policy guaranteed that Europe would once again be divided, even as Washington created a new order that excluded and progressively alienated post-Soviet Russia.

From 1993, when discussions about it began in earnest, there was no one of significance to oppose them. Worse yet, the president, a savvy politician, sensed that the project might even help him attract voters in the 1996 presidential election, especially in the Midwest, home to millions of Americans with eastern and central European roots..

- https://www.thenation.com/article/world/nato-clinton-ukraine-russia/

[daniel1212]

" This war is a war between two factions of the left: a nationalist, neo-Stalinist state (Russia), and a transnational corporatist progressive superstate (US/NATO). Ukraine is in the middle. Which of these left factions is worse? Twenty years ago, I would have unequivocally have said Russia. But after having heard endless lies from our “intelligence agencies”, and having watched them manufacture evidence to try to remove Trump from office twice and finally oust him by throwing an election, I’m not sure. I detest both of these left factions. "

But at the least here sharing your faith is not outlawed yet nor any public criticism of leadership. See thread: REQUEST FROM A RUSSIAN CHRISTIAN and below:

Russia's Newest Law: No Evangelizing Outside of Church | News ...

Christians are Severely Persecuted in Putin's Russia – But That Could ...

Christian Persecution Increasing in Russia - Christian News Headlines

Report: Non-Orthodox Christians Face 'Strong Discrimination' in Russia

Russia, other former Soviet republics persecuting Christians, new ...

Moscow church destroyed in sign of new Russian repression Posted on Sep 26, 2012 | by Jill Nelson

Russia's De-Facto State Religion : Persecution : http://www ... www.persecution.org/?p=9350&upm...‎ International Christian Co... Putin frequently appears with the Orthodox head, Patriarch Aleksei II, ... Baptists, evangelicals, Pentecostals and many others who cut Christ's robes like bandits, ...

Government Returning Land to Religious Organizations to Favor Orthodox Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009: An ambitious draft law on the transfer of property of religious significance to religious organisations may reignite a process begun in 1993.

Pentecostal Seminary Targeted for Liquidation

Pentecostal Church Forced to Meet Outside in Moscow Winter

Russia: Governor Orders Church Land Grab

Council of Religious Experts threatens religious freedom

A new Inquisition ?

Russia “You have the law, we have orders ”

[daniel1212]

Why would Russia's neighbors seek more security once the Bear was weakened, given its nature (yet the US did disrespect it and should have helped it to rehabilitate, but its internal corruption made that difficult.

Partial history from https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17858981

Timeline of Soviet takeover of Eastern Europe

Country	Year	Methods used
Albania	1945	A communist government took power at the end of World War Two.
Bulgaria	1946	In 1946 the Bulgarian monarchy was abolished and later that year a communist government was elected and gradually eradicated its opponents.
East Germany	1945	East Germany was part of the Soviet zone of occupation agreed at the Yalta Conference and in 1945 the Soviets set up a communist regime.
Romania	1945	In the 1945 elections, a communist-led coalition (made up of more than one political party) government was elected. The Communists gradually removed their coalition partners and abolished the Romanian monarchy.
Poland	1947	Fearing that a non-communist government would be elected in 1947, Stalin invited 16 non-communist politicians to Moscow, where they were arrested. With their political opponents removed, the Polish communists won the election.
Hungary	1948	Although non-communists won the 1945 election, a communist politician, Rakosi, took control of the secret police and used it to arrest and execute his political opponents. By 1948 the Communist Party was in complete control of the country.
Czechoslovakia	1948	Czechoslovakia was the last country in Eastern Europe to fully fall to communism in 1948. At elections that year only communists were allowed to stand and a communist government was duly elected... -https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zt8ncwx/revision/7 1950-53 - Outbreak of Korean war sees relations between the Soviet Union and the West deteriorate markedly. 1955 - Warsaw Treaty Organisation, or Warsaw Pact, set up. 1956 - Soviet troops help crush uprising in Hungary. 1968 - Soviet and Warsaw Pact troops invade Czechoslovakia to stem a trend towards liberalisation; "Brezhnev doctrine" enunciated, giving communist countries the right to intervene in other communist states whose policies threatened the international communist movement. 1969 - Soviet and Chinese troops clash across the border. 1972 - Soviet Union and US sign SALT-1 arms control agreement, heralding the start of detente. 1974 - Soviet Union agrees to ease its emigration policy in return for most-favoured-nation trade status with the US. 1989 - "Revolutions of 1989" see the toppling of Soviet-imposed communist regimes in central and eastern Europe. Events begin in Poland and continue in Hungary, East Germany, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and Romania. In East Germany, an unprecedented series of mass public rallies leads to the fall of the Berlin Wall on 9 November.

[Zhang Fei]

As usual, the Nation, helmed by Russia firsters including Katrina vanden Heuvel and late hubby Stephen F. Cohen, Russophiles and Amerophobes first and foremost, misses the point. The expansion of the alliance was on paper only, as every member, original to NATO and ex-Warsaw Pact alike, crashed their military expenditures.

And it was a *voluntary* alliance. If the Warsaw Pact nations truly appreciated Russian rule, they could have chosen to retain their association with with Russia. In reality, of course, they were quite literally Russian provinces in all but name. That's why they chose to associate with NATO. They understood that once Russia gained strength, it would reach out and put them back in chains in the traditional Russian manner, with boots on the ground.  A Russia that genuinely wanted peace with the West would have redeployed the bulk of its forces to the Chinese border instead of menacing its former Warsaw Pact vassal states. It did not.

Russia has 5,000 nukes. That's its buffer zone. Instead, Putin has used those nukes as a shield behind which he hopes to reach for the kind of prominence names like Vladimir the Great, Peter the Great and Catherine the Great command in Russian historiography, largely through territorial expansion.

Thanks to Putin's invasion of Ukraine, the Germans have done a head-spinning U-turn - they are finally re-arming. The analogy would be to the Pope suddenly declaring that he's really a devout Hindu (although that wouldn't surprise me). I suspect the appearance of 100,000 demonstrators in Berlin forced the chancellor's hand.

Up until now, the US was pushing the reluctant EU. Now the EU and Germany are out in front. The sanctions WILL hurt Russia, a lot, especially the rich. The weapons that the EU is paying for and sending will hurt Russia. Putin is like Japan at Pearl Harbor – he has awakened the sleeping eagle (albeit the German one) and it wasn’t a good idea to do so.

When the German chancellor, who has acted like Putin’s personal valet throughout suddenly does a U-turn - that’s when you sit up and take notice. When the Green weenies in Germany start talking about reviving coal, you know these people have seen the elephant, and are acting accordingly.

 

German chancellor Scholz in a fairly long formal speech in parliament an hour ago has announced five steps that the German government is taking:

1. Support Ukraine with weapon deliveries from Germany and Allies as an answer to Putin's aggression
2. Deter Putin from further aggression through sanctions and embargos, both against the country, its private business and "responsible individuals".
3. continue to increase deployed Bundeswehr units to support Eastern-European NATO allies.
   1. Maintain Battlegroup in Lithuania (being expanded with reserve forces).
   2. Contribute to second Battlegroup in Slovakia being built up (Germany will also take command of this second Battlegroup).
   3. Continue current adhoc-formed Air Policing deployment in Romania (training deployment with Italy was transformed to that)
   4. Continue current adhoc deployment of German Navy ships in patrols in Baltic Sea and Mediterranean.
   5. Ready air defence forces for deployment on NATO eastern borders if required.
4. Invest to increase Bundeswehr capabilities:
   1. Establish an immediate 100 billion Euro budget for 2022 to increase Bundeswehr capabilities.
   2. Permanently raise defence budget above 2% GDP.
   3. Prioritize projects with European partners, in particular France for new MBTs, future Eurofighter replacement and just signed Eurodrone project. Replace Tornado with SEAD-enabled Eurofighters and consider F-35 for nuclear delivery (and yes, he named the thing usually not named). Procure Heron UCAV from Israel.
   4. Increase hybrid warfare and cyber resilience.
   5. (Seek increased energy independence from Russia by expanding coal and gas reserves and building two LNG terminals.)
5. (didn't quite catch that - lots of bla about "ceasing naive exterior politics" of recent years and about alliances and "defending a peaceful Europe")

There was a lot of serious pathos and patriotistic platitudes throughout the speech, going as far as "we shall defend every square meter of NATO" and a "do not ask what you can get out of Brussels for your own country, but ask what is the best decision for The Union". The speech was accentuated by standing applause from most of the plenum (except the right-extremist pro-Putin AfD faction).

[telescope115]

Love it. “Hey, buddy, a big fat SNAKE ISLAND!”
Next time I get cut off in traffic….

[Zhang Fei]

A big part of the reason NATO members cut defense spending was to fund social spending and green programs. But the underlying assumption was the strength was provocative. The massive cuts, such that Europe needed American help to mount a piddly mission over Libya, were a giant olive branch to Russia. The German U-turn on defense spending - hiking it big time - is driven by the recognition that when Russia is your neighbor, it’s weakness, not strength, that’s provocative.

[daniel1212]

"Thanks to Putin's invasion of Ukraine, the Germans have done a head-spinning U-turn - they are finally re-arming."

I think you are saying that Putin really "jumped the shark."

[SunkenCiv]

[snip] Putin is an invade-the-world, invite-the-world imperialist, he’s just the Russian version. Every other European country got the memo after 1945 that 1.) imperialism was dumb and self-defeating, doubly so if you are trying to cobble together an empire within Europe, 2.) starting intra-European wars is the greatest crime against humanity imaginable.

Russia wants buffer states? Why doesn’t Germany get buffer states then? Why doesn’t France get buffer states? Buffer states are for Russia’s security? Seriously? Do you think that Napoleon is going to mass his troops in Poland and march on Russia? Those days are over. Russia is 4x the size of its European neighbors *combined*. It has all the security it needs, and has had it for the last 80 years. This has f***-all to do with their security. They just want to tell their neighbors what to do, and are willing to get people killed for the privilege. [/snip]

Thanks Zhang Fei.