Pistol replacement recommendation [Vanity]

None ^ | June 3, 2016 | Self

[Reno89519]

My smallest concealed carry is a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 380. By all accounts a quality pistol. In practice, though, I increasingly dislike it. The long 12-pound trigger pull prevents accurate, consistent shooting. After over a year and many hundreds of rounds, the results are all over the place.

By comparison, I can place a six-inch result at 45-feet and at 21-feet, mostly in 3-inch, using either a Sig Sauer P320SC or, almost as well, with a S&W M&P Shield 40.

At 21-feet, the S&W 380 Bodyguard is typically 8-12 inches.

I like the smaller size of the S&W Bodyguard 380.

So my question is, what replacement would you recommend? So many choices in that smallest size format...

[Jack Black]

Nice gun. Is that a 9mm? Is the small lever on the upper right a decocker, or decocker safety like most traditional S&W semi-autos?

I miss the 2nd generation S&W Semi Autos, none of which remain in production. The full size 10mm was a really nice gun, as was the medium size 9mm. Had one of the latter, and regret selling it.

I always liked this "ladysmith" version best, an 8+1 single stack 9mm:

[Boomer]

Very similar to the Makarov. Some are even chambered for the same ammo; the 9 x 18 9mm. The Makarov round is frequently thought of as weak but it is anything but. If weight isn’t a factor such as hip carry vs pocket carry in which weight is critical; then the Makarov or CZ are fantastic and pretty much guaranteed to go bang when needed.

There’s even a new grip that moves the mag release from the heel of the Makarov to the thumb like what most people are used to. I put one on one of my Mak’s and like it so far.

Having said all that; if weight is an issue I would look at the Keltec, Ruger, Kahr, or DiamondBack 380. I think most people are aware handguns, even a .45, is really not an instant stopping caliber due to low velocity unless the hit is in the face and penetrates to the brain or hits a vital organ like the heart or possibly the lungs. A .380 bullet will penetrate the sinus cavity and continue on into the brain. If a round doesn’t hit one of those two places the bad guy may die later but for a while he can keep coming and possibly kill. Always shoot to kill the bad guy. Always. Never to wound. No one is such a good shot they can hit a knee under extreme pressure. Even highly experienced police will only hit their targets 50% of the time under duress. That’s why to this day many still prefer the double tap to the chest then a single or double to the head. Heck; I say reverse it and go double to the head then double to the chest. If you hit the brain on the first shot he will drop like a sack of potatoes so there won’t be a need for a second, third, or 4th shot unless he moves in a way that’s still threatening and that’s assuming we are only talking about one bad guy and not 2 or more.

The three most important components of stopping power are: bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement.
-Evan Marshall

[Jack Black]

I got a Sig P238 for my daughter to use several years back, but my comments from post 30 apply. The P238 is on the same complexity as a 1911, and to be honest, the thumb safety is stiffer to work than the 1911. Being a smaller gun, anyone with average or larger hands is going to be slowed by fumbling with the safety after drawing from the holster. Sig would not be high on my list for serious defensive handgun for this reason, but you fight with what you have :)

I agree, I have large hands and found the gun didn't fit them well with the placement of the safety.

[Billthedrill]

Hooboy - been there done that, recently. Loved the Bodyguard .380 right up until it started not to go bang when I pulled the trigger. Known light-strike issue with that model - mostly doesn't happen with self-defense loads but who wants to take that chance? Hickok45 has no fewer than three Youtube vids on the gun and he has the problem on all three. And most of what you can do to improve the trigger pull (the Galloway kits, for example) carries the potential of compounding the problem. Mind you, there are owners who do not report the issue and are mystified when you call it a show-stopper. Don't know what to tell them.

Love the size of the platform, but I've settled on the slightly larger Kahr PM-9 as an EDC gun. It's a little clunkier carried in the pocket (I'm not a very big guy) but it still fits fine and you have a 9mm instead of a .380. Mostly I belt carry anyway.

The only one of the S&W Bodyguard's competitors I've tried is the Sig P238, which is a truly fine little piece of engineering but about double the cost. Ya pays fer what ya gits is my impression there. If I weren't so happy with the Kahr I'd probably be saving my pennies for the Sig, but the truth is I'm a little more comfortable with a 9mm pill than a .380. YMMV. Handguns suck as self-defense weapons (in comparison to long guns) but they're what you're going to have on you and they sure beat no gun at all.

Let us know what you decide.

[advertising guy]

I have the Sig P220 Platinum Elite 45acp as well

[Magnum44]

Obviously, what works best for an individual is the key.

I have been shooting for almost 50 years now and an NRA instructor for the last 15 (with some military shooting training earlier in my career). I used to think exactly what you wrote, and still cant disagree with that, but the older I get, the more the realize what I didn't know.

I have in recent years been getting more into the defensive training side of shooting. Earlier in the thread declared I once swore by the 1911. I came to the point of convincing myself to go to less complex when I started training to go from hands down, under garment holster to two chest shots at 25 yards in less than 1.5 seconds. I could do it with my 1911 but the guy next to me with the XD could do it faster (and just as accurately). The further revelation was training for malfunctions and reloads. Again, simpler gun meant simpler procedures for type I, II, III malfunctions and tactical reloads and getting 'back in the fight' faster. It was a revelation that took about 45 years for me to convince myself that what I thought worked best for me wasn't really best for me. I still love my 1911, I have just come to realize for defensive carry there is better.

Of course the other thing I have come to appreciate is that the pistols main purpose is to allow me to get safely back to my rifle, which is always going to be better in a gun fight :)

[FXRP]

"Sig Sauer P-238. Very compact and concealable. Single action. "

Let me 2nd this suggestion. Nice trigger and nice action. Not cheap though.

[Jack Black]

If you want to stick with small and light and .380 this was my favorite after attending a large gun show here that had a table of .380s to try out. I have not shot it, but the fit and finish were excellent and the feel of the gun in my hands was better than the other extra small .380s.

There is also a 9mm version, which is only slightly larger, but again might be harder to shoot accurately in such a super-mini-size with the higher power round.

It's small like yours as you can see in this video by a pocket holster maker. Not sure it would have more accuracy than your S&W though. I think you are just hitting the limit of what can be done in a true mouse gun.

[Red in Blue PA]

I have the P238 and a Kimber Ultra.....love them both but they are too nice to beat up. Am thinking of getting an XDS 3.3 in 45 ACP.

[Stentor]

if weight is an issue I would look at the Keltec, Ruger, Kahr, or DiamondBack 380

I have an LCP in my pocket. The poster was worried about accuracy. Both of my CZ 82s are nail drivers. I'm hoping not to miss up close with that LCP. The way things are going here in New Bechuanaland I may start dragging my 75B around.

[archy]

A lot depends on the eyes and hand size of the individual, with body size and shape a consideration for deciding on what holster or carry rig will work out best for you. The last really small-framed carry semiauto I used was an East German PM Makerov. Unfortunately, my ex-USAF better half got her hands on it, decided she liked it better than any of my 9mm Parabellum guns, asked what I wanted for it, and I told her we'd work something out. That was back around '98 or '99; she's still cooking and mowing the grass, and she's still got the pistol, which I more-or-less replaced with a Polish P64 Walther PPK copy, also in 9mm Makarov. The safety on the Makareov operates like that on a M1911A1 .45; flip safety down for *shoot* and up for *safe*- on the Walther and most copies it's justr the opposite so I usually carry safety in *fire* position with the hammer down.

I have my doubts that some of the current aluminum and plastic-framed guns will last as long as a steel-frame Makarov if shot as much as she has, but no doubt wonderful new designs that should be considered will come out every decade or so.

Of the immediately available commercial offerings, the S&W 9mm Shields seem to feed about any ammo you can thumb in the magazine and I've yet to see one break in use. But I can buy about two PM Makarovs or three P64s for the price of a good shield, and I do also have a shortened 2 1/2-inch barrel for my Walther P.38, which gives me a very handy little 9-shot DA 9mm that fits my hand well and has huge *barndoor* sights that show up well for me at night- I do wear eyeglasses. And the Walther is equally usable for me with either left or right hand; I've been shooting the things for more than 50 years now.

[Yo-Yo]

Glock 42 if you want to stick with soft shooting .380, Glock 43 if you want the stopping power of 9mm.

[Jack Black]

No thread on .380 semi-auto handguns would be really complete without some homage paid to the cartridge designer, John M. Browning.

The more I learn about guns the more I stumble over his footprints. It's hard to think of another inventor in any field who so completely dominated it during their life, and whose designs continued to dominate a full century later. Even Edison's light-bulb has finally given way, but Browning's pistol, cartridge, shotgun, lever action and semi-auto rifle and machine gun designs all are still used and manufactured by a huge number of companies worldwide.

From Wikipedia:

.380 ACP

The .380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) is a rimless, straight-walled pistol cartridge developed by firearms designer John Moses Browning. The cartridge headspaces on the mouth of the case.[2] It was introduced in 1908 by Colt, for use in its new Colt Model 1908 pocket hammerless semi-automatic, and has been a popular self-defense cartridge ever since, seeing wide use in numerous handguns (typically smaller weapons). Other names for .380 ACP include .380 Auto, 9mm Browning, 9mm Corto, 9mm Kurz, 9mm Short, 9×17mm and 9 mm Browning Court (which is the C.I.P. designation). It is not to be confused with .38 ACP, 9mm Ultra, 9mm Makarov or 9mm Parabellum.

What's particularly amazing is that the .380 ACP was one of a family of four cartidges, all of which continue to be widely used by handgun shooters today. The other three are the .25 ACP, the .32 ACP and the .45 ACP. Each had a matching gun sized appropriately for the cartridge.

Here is a nice picture of early examples of all four pistols I am linking from a collector over at The Firing Line Forums.

From top to bottom:

Colt Government Model, Caliber .45 ACP, commercial version, manufactured in 1920
Colt Automatic Pistol -Pocket Model of 1908 in .380 from 1925
Colt Automatic Pistol -Pocket Model of 1903, in caliber .32 ACP from 1925
Colt Vest Pocket Pistol of 1908 in caliber .25 ACP, manufactured in 1921

A lovely matching pair of nickel=plated Colt Hamerless pistols in .380 and .25 ACP

The .25 ACP has faded from serious use as designers have put more powerful rounds into smaller and smaller pistols.

The .32 ACP was still popular in the 1990s in the Seacamp as a last-ditch backup pistol, today the smaller .380s are about the same size, and the .32 is fading, though it still has fans particularly in Europe.

The .380 ACP and .45 ACP are more popular than ever.

It would be interesting to see Kahr, the company that led the way on the micro-gun trend, build a tiny .25, I'm not sure they could best Browning's Vest Pocket Model.

[Jack Black]

Colt Pocket Hammerless in .32 ACP, Seacamp .32 ACP comparison.

[grobdriver]

The ONLY thing you need to use as your guide is, Carry what you can hit with.

A hit with a .380 is better than a miss with a .45.

[Jack Black]

Colt Vest Pocket .25 ACP compared with KelTec P3AT, in .380.

As you can see the 108 year old Browning design is still a bit smaller than one of the smallest of the current .380s.

To make a really small gun, start with the cartridge, or if you were John M. Browning, invent one.

[TXnMA]

Most of the time now -- in place of my beloved HKP7M8 -- I carry my wife's S&W M&P Shield (just "breaking it and its holster in for her"...) '-)

Carrying it in a black IWB holster and wearing black pants & T-shirt, most folks never even notice that I'm armed -- even without a "cover shirt"...

Only problems are that the mag springs are so stiff that I had to get a mag loader for her -- and, until I worked it over, the trigger was terrible.

Now, the trigger is 6-7lbs, smooth & crisp -- and the piece shoots as well as my aging hands and eyes can manage to do...

Reno89519. I heartily recommend the M&P Shield; just be prepared to do a trigger job (aftermarket kit) on it...

[Lee N. Field]

I like the smaller size of the S&W Bodyguard 380.

So my question is, what replacement would you recommend? So many choices in that smallest size format...

I have an LCP .380. I've concluded that it (and by extension, others in it's size class) is a specialized piece. It's for when nothing larger can be concealed.

Can you step up to a subcompact 9mm? or possibly a .38 snubbie?

[ChildOfThe60s]

All good points. Like anything that is an evolving skill we probably never get to that just right point. I don’t expect I will. I am happy to see a slow but ongoing improvement in myself.

In as much as my wife is concerned, her first exposure to firing guns was a couple of years ago after the age of 60. She has had nasty fractures in both forearms and her ability to rack a slide is limited, recoil becomes an issue for any significant time shooting. With considerable practice and technique she has mastered racking the Kahr, which she could not do initially. This was a major milestone. The Sig came later and is obviously easier for her. I believe she could clear a malfunction in less time with it because it is physically easier for her to manipulate.

OTOH, were concealment not a factor, she is competent and comfortable with the 9mm Kahr. So when I am gone she has that as well as the Sig.

I’m sure we have a ways to go, but I am thrilled that at her age she took to the whole aspect of handguns, training and getting her CCDW. I bought her a range membership nearby and she tries to go 1-2 days a week. And the male range masters are quite helpful to women shooters of her age. Beauty of a local gun shop in a small town.

[papertyger]

I still love my 1911, I have just come to realize for defensive carry there is better.

A stone cold evaluation of the 1911 is very difficult. Quite apart from its impressive history, I think the 1911 is the most ergonomically perfect pistol thus far created.