Did LaVon have a legal obligation to stop for the police?

Vanity ^ | 2/3/2015 | Jack Black

[Jack Black]

Many years ago I was a passenger in a car driven by my brother. He cut off a car leaving a gas station, the car followed us about 1/2 a mile to our destination. The occupant got out, ran up ripped open the drivers door and pulled my brother (a smallish 16 year old at the time) out of the car bodily. Turned out the fellow driving was a LEO (Harbor Master) in an unmarked car. He was also not in uniform. Shortly there after a marked police car showed up, with uniformed police officers.

The police wrote my brother a ticket for failure to yield to a police officer or some such. The ticket was thrown out by the DA when my brothers lawyer pointed out that in Michigan one is only required to stop for either an officer in a marked vehicle, or an officer in an unmarked vehicle in uniform. Mere flashing lights and guy in blue jeans is not sufficient (or was not at the time) to indicate to a driver that they were required to stop.

Now, look again at the video of the police ambush in Burns. In both the first stop, and the subsequent roadblock ambush. In the first stop the two vehicles pulling him over appear to be completely black with no markings. They have no lightbar, only a couple flashing lights behind the grill. We don't clearly see the people in the vehicles. Were they in recognizable uniforms of the local police or State Patrol? Or were they dressed all in "ninja black" perhaps with POLICE stenciled on the backs of their uniforms?

In the second stop you have three trucks blocking the road, none appear in the least bit to be law enforcement vehicles.

You know you are supposed to stop for vehicles marked like THIS:

And obey the lawful commands of people dressed like THIS:

First, lets look at the vehicles used in the initial stop:

They have no visible police markings, do not have lightbars, and do not look like and typical unmarked police vehicles (such as the ubiquitous plain white Ford Crown Victoria). The only indicator of them having an official function are the one red and one blue flashing lights hidden in the grill.

Now lets go to the roadblock used to facilitate the ambush. there are No visible police logos in this picture, at the second stop:

I do not see any flat brimmed police hats.

Also, not the absence of road flares, safety signs, warning cones or any other device warning motorists to slow down. Any tow truck driver in the state would do a better job of marking a road closure than these guys did.

In summary it is not at all clear to me from looking at these pictures that the drivers of the target vehicles had an obligation to stop at either juncture.

Should LaVon's family choose to bring suit for his death I think they will have a good case based on the flagrant failure of the supposed law enforcement officers to properly identify themselves.

According to the survivors there were no commands given via PA at the first stop either.

If I were stopped on a rural highway in the middle of nowhere by two black SUV's with no markings, non-uniformed drivers, and given no identification or verbal commands I would probably drive away too.

The behavior of the US law enforcement in this respect is reminiscent of something you would see in a Latin American country, where police act as free-lance strong arm units, operate shadowy death squads, and use poorly marked roadblocks for nefarious purposes.

This is not in the tradition of American law enforcement.

This was not a pursuit following a crime (such as a bank robbery or something) where in emergency un-marked or civilian vehicles might be pressed into service. This was a highly planned operation that included air-support. Given that one can only assume that the choice of using all unmarked vehicles and non-uniformed officers was intentional.

Why? My surmise is that they hoped to engender exactly the response they got, to escalate what should have been a simple traffic stop into a "felon fleeing arrest". It certainly has many indicators of a pre-planned setup with malicious intent on the part of the agencies directing it.

[semimojo]

Apparently, in your odd little world, a shot fired doesn't mean more shots will be fired. ???!!???

I'm really trying to understand what the thinking is here.

It was reported by the women that a shot was heard. After that, Ryan Payne exited the truck and was taken into custody - no violence.

The truck continued to sit there for minutes with LaVoy fully visible and practically motionless in the driver's window. He wasn't shot.

Everyone else who had obeyed the LEOs was unharmed.

LaVoy decided to rabbit and off we go.

I can understand if they feared they might be shot at when they decided to bolt, but some claim they bolted because they were being shot at. Makes no sense given the above facts.

[LeeClementineKenny]

Lavoy Finicum was murdered. He was a true patriot, and will be remembered as the martyr he is. We will never forget his death, and will do everything in our power to make sure his sacrifice wasn’t in vain.

[kiryandil]

Look, you can keep carefully trying to construct your strawman by leaving things out, but you have to deal with the totality of what was going on.

From post #40:

Prior to release of the FBI video Sharp stated that Payne had his hands and head out the window and was asking to let the woman out, and he was shot at.

Flashes are clearly seen on the video of the stop. Immediately after those flashes Finicum leaves. Whether those flashes are muzzle flashes, flash bangs, or something else I do not know. Sharp said that after being shot at they realized that the police "meant business" and that Finicum yelled that he was going to continue driving so that he could "talk to the sheriff."

=========

Ryan Payne was fortunate that he wasn't shot when he got out of the truck.

We don't know what his thinking was, just that he was "lucky".

It's illogical to argue that one shot was all that was going to be fired, because no one can predict the future.

One can infer from past events, which is what humans commonly do.

Perhaps we'll find out in the future why Payne thought he was buying a winning Lotto ticket. :)

It WOULD be nice if the law enforcement people you're so passionately defending would quit their stonewalling and release their videos with sound.

And give back the video camera that they confiscated from the truck - if it's actually worth anything, given the amount of time they've had to "work" on it...

[Ray76]

This article has photos of the roadblock site

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/the_spot_where_finicum_died_bu.html

[Ray76]

“It was standing room only at a meeting Tuesday night at the John Day Senior Center. Ammon Bundy, who’s led the occupation at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, was supposed to speak but got arrested enroute.”

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/post_3.html

[Ray76]

Ping to photos of the roadblock site

http://freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3392324/posts?page=104#104

[Ray76]

Shawna Cox statements

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/shawna_cox_refuge_occupier_des.html

[yuleeyahoo]

In operations like these, I believe at the bare minimum; the Officer in charge should be dressed in a clearly identifiable uniform and vehicle.

[BlueMoose]

ok