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Confederate Flag Needs To Be Raised, Not Lowered (contains many fascinating facts -golux)
via e-mail | Thursday, July 9, 2015 | Chuck Baldwin

Posted on 07/11/2015 9:54:21 AM PDT by golux

The Confederate Flag Needs To Be Raised, Not Lowered

Ladies and gentlemen, I submit that what we see happening in the United States today is an apt illustration of why the Confederate flag was raised in the first place. What we see materializing before our very eyes is tyranny: tyranny over the freedom of expression, tyranny over the freedom of association, tyranny over the freedom of speech, and tyranny over the freedom of conscience.

In 1864, Confederate General Patrick Cleburne warned his fellow Southerners of the historical consequences should the South lose their war for independence. He was truly a prophet. He said if the South lost, “It means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy. That our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by all of the influences of History and Education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.” No truer words were ever spoken.

History revisionists flooded America’s public schools with Northern propaganda about the people who attempted to secede from the United States, characterizing them as racists, extremists, radicals, hatemongers, traitors, etc. You know, the same way that people in our federal government and news media attempt to characterize Christians, patriots, war veterans, constitutionalists, et al. today.

Folks, please understand that the only people in 1861 who believed that states did NOT have the right to secede were Abraham Lincoln and his radical Republicans. To say that southern states did not have the right to secede from the United States is to say that the thirteen colonies did not have the right to secede from Great Britain. One cannot be right and the other wrong. If one is right, both are right. How can we celebrate our Declaration of Independence in 1776 and then turn around and condemn the Declaration of Independence of the Confederacy in 1861? Talk about hypocrisy!

In fact, Southern states were not the only states that talked about secession. After the Southern states seceded, the State of Maryland fully intended to join them. In September of 1861, Lincoln sent federal troops to the State capital and seized the legislature by force in order to prevent them from voting. Federal provost marshals stood guard at the polls and arrested Democrats and anyone else who believed in secession. A special furlough was granted to Maryland troops so they could go home and vote against secession. Judges who tried to inquire into the phony elections were arrested and thrown into military prisons. There is your great “emancipator,” folks.

And before the South seceded, several Northern states had also threatened secession. Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island had threatened secession as far back as James Madison’s administration. In addition, the states of New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were threatening secession during the first half of the nineteenth century--long before the Southern states even considered such a thing.

People say constantly that Lincoln “saved” the Union. Lincoln didn’t save the Union; he subjugated the Union. There is a huge difference. A union that is not voluntary is not a union. Does a man have a right to force a woman to marry him or to force a woman to stay married to him? In the eyes of God, a union of husband and wife is far superior to a union of states. If God recognizes the right of husbands and wives to separate (and He does), to try and suggest that states do not have the right to lawfully (under Natural and divine right) separate is the most preposterous proposition imaginable.

People say that Lincoln freed the slaves. Lincoln did NOT free a single slave. But what he did do was enslave free men. His so-called Emancipation Proclamation had NO AUTHORITY in the Southern states, as they had separated into another country. Imagine a President today signing a proclamation to free folks in, say, China or Saudi Arabia. He would be laughed out of Washington. Lincoln had no authority over the Confederate States of America, and he knew it.

Do you not find it interesting that Lincoln’s proclamation did NOT free a single slave in the United States, the country in which he DID have authority? That’s right. The Emancipation Proclamation deliberately ignored slavery in the North. Do you not realize that when Lincoln signed his proclamation, there were over 300,000 slaveholders who were fighting in the Union army? Check it out.

One of those Northern slaveholders was General (and later U.S. President) Ulysses S. Grant. In fact, he maintained possession of his slaves even after the War Between the States concluded. Recall that his counterpart, Confederate General Robert E. Lee, freed his slaves BEFORE hostilities between North and South ever broke out. When asked why he refused to free his slaves, Grant said, “Good help is hard to find these days.”

The institution of slavery did not end until the 13th Amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865.

Speaking of the 13th Amendment, did you know that Lincoln authored his own 13th Amendment? It is the only amendment to the Constitution ever proposed by a sitting U.S. President. Here is Lincoln’s proposed amendment: “No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person's held to labor or service by laws of said State.”

You read it right. Lincoln proposed an amendment to the U.S. Constitution PRESERVING the institution of slavery. This proposed amendment was written in March of 1861, a month BEFORE the shots were fired at Fort Sumter, South Carolina.

The State of South Carolina was particularly incensed at the tariffs enacted in 1828 and 1832. The Tariff of 1828 was disdainfully called, “The Tariff of Abominations” by the State of South Carolina. Accordingly, the South Carolina legislature declared that the tariffs of 1828 and 1832 were “unauthorized by the Constitution of the United States.”

Think, folks: why would the Southern states secede from the Union over slavery when President Abraham Lincoln had offered an amendment to the Constitution guaranteeing the PRESERVATION of slavery? That makes no sense. If the issue was predominantly slavery, all the South needed to do was to go along with Lincoln, and his proposed 13th Amendment would have permanently preserved slavery among the Southern (and Northern) states. Does that sound like a body of people who were willing to lose hundreds of thousands of men on the battlefield over saving slavery? What nonsense!

The problem was Lincoln wanted the Southern states to pay the Union a 40% tariff on their exports. The South considered this outrageous and refused to pay. By the time hostilities broke out in 1861, the South was paying up to, and perhaps exceeding, 70% of the nation’s taxes. Before the war, the South was very prosperous and productive. And Washington, D.C., kept raising the taxes and tariffs on them. You know, the way Washington, D.C., keeps raising the taxes on prosperous American citizens today.

This is much the same story of the way the colonies refused to pay the demanded tariffs of the British Crown--albeit the tariffs of the Crown were MUCH lower than those demanded by Lincoln. Lincoln’s proposed 13th Amendment was an attempt to entice the South into paying the tariffs by being willing to permanently ensconce the institution of slavery into the Constitution. AND THE SOUTH SAID NO!

In addition, the Congressional Record of the United States forever obliterates the notion that the North fought the War Between the States over slavery. Read it for yourself. This resolution was passed unanimously in the U.S. Congress on July 23, 1861, “The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union.”

What could be clearer? The U.S. Congress declared that the war against the South was NOT an attempt to overthrow or interfere with the “institutions” of the states, but to keep the Union intact (by force). The “institutions” implied most certainly included the institution of slavery.

Hear it loudly and clearly: Lincoln’s war against the South had NOTHING to do with ending slavery--so said the U.S. Congress by unanimous resolution in 1861.

Abraham Lincoln, himself, said it was NEVER his intention to end the institution of slavery. In a letter to Alexander Stevens who later became the Vice President of the Confederacy, Lincoln wrote this, “Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears. The South would be in no more danger in this respect than it was in the days of Washington.”

Again, what could be clearer? Lincoln, himself, said the Southern states had nothing to fear from him in regard to abolishing slavery.

Hear Lincoln again: “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it.” He also said, “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so and I have no inclination to do so.”

The idea that the Confederate flag (actually there were five of them) stood for racism, bigotry, hatred, and slavery is just so much hogwash. In fact, if one truly wants to discover who the racist was in 1861, just read the words of Mr. Lincoln.

On August 14, 1862, Abraham Lincoln invited a group of black people to the White House. In his address to them, he told them of his plans to colonize them all back to Africa. Listen to what he told these folks: “Why should the people of your race be colonized and where? Why should they leave this country? This is, perhaps, the first question for proper consideration. You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss; but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think. Your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason, at least, why we should be separated. You here are freemen, I suppose? Perhaps you have been long free, or all your lives. Your race is suffering, in my judgment, the greatest wrong inflicted on any people. But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race. The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best when free, but on this broad continent not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of our race.”

Did you hear what Lincoln said? He said that black people would NEVER be equal with white people--even if they all obtained their freedom from slavery. If that isn’t a racist statement, I’ve never heard one.

Lincoln’s statement above is not isolated. In Charleston, Illinois, in 1858, Lincoln said in a speech, “I am not, nor have ever been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on social or political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white.”

Ladies and gentlemen, in his own words, Abraham Lincoln declared himself to be a white supremacist. Why don’t our history books and news media tell the American people the truth about Lincoln and about the War Between the States?

It’s simple: if people would study the meanings and history of the flag, symbols, and statues of the Confederacy and Confederate leaders, they might begin to awaken to the tyrannical policies of Washington, D.C., that precluded Southern independence--policies that have only escalated since the defeat of the Confederacy--and they might have a notion to again resist.

By the time Lincoln penned his Emancipation Proclamation, the war had been going on for two years without resolution. In fact, the North was losing the war. Even though the South was outmanned and out-equipped, the genius of the Southern generals and fighting acumen of the Southern men had put the northern armies on their heels. Many people in the North never saw the legitimacy of Lincoln’s war in the first place, and many of them actively campaigned against it. These people were affectionately called “Copperheads” by people in the South.

I urge you to watch Ron Maxwell’s accurate depiction of those people in the North who favored the Southern cause as depicted in his motion picture, “Copperhead.” For that matter, I consider his movie, “Gods And Generals” to be the greatest “Civil War” movie ever made. It is the most accurate and fairest depiction of Confederate General Thomas Jonathan “Stonewall” Jackson ever produced. In my opinion, actor Stephen Lang should have received an Oscar for his performance as General Jackson. But, can you imagine?

That’s another thing: the war fought from 1861 to 1865 was NOT a “civil war.” Civil war suggests two sides fighting for control of the same capital and country. The South didn’t want to take over Washington, D.C., no more than their forebears wanted to take over London. They wanted to separate from Washington, D.C., just as America’s Founding Fathers wanted to separate from Great Britain. The proper names for that war are either, “The War Between the States” or, “The War of Southern Independence,” or, more fittingly, “The War of Northern Aggression.”

Had the South wanted to take over Washington, D.C., they could have done so with the very first battle of the “Civil War.” When Lincoln ordered federal troops to invade Virginia in the First Battle of Manassas (called the “First Battle of Bull Run” by the North), Confederate troops sent the Yankees running for their lives all the way back to Washington. Had the Confederates pursued them, they could have easily taken the city of Washington, D.C., seized Abraham Lincoln, and perhaps ended the war before it really began. But General Beauregard and the others had no intention of fighting an aggressive war against the North. They merely wanted to defend the South against the aggression of the North.

In order to rally people in the North, Lincoln needed a moral crusade. That’s what his Emancipation Proclamation was all about. This explains why his proclamation was not penned until 1863, after two years of fruitless fighting. He was counting on people in the North to stop resisting his war against the South if they thought it was some kind of “holy” war. Plus, Lincoln was hoping that his proclamation would incite blacks in the South to insurrect against Southern whites. If thousands of blacks would begin to wage war against their white neighbors, the fighting men of the Southern armies would have to leave the battlefields and go home to defend their families. THIS NEVER HAPPENED.

Not only did blacks not riot against the whites of the South, many black men volunteered to fight alongside their white friends and neighbors in the Confederate army. Unlike the blacks in the North, who were conscripted by Lincoln and forced to fight in segregated units, thousands of blacks in the South fought of their own free will in a fully-integrated Southern army. I bet your history book never told you about that.

If one wants to ban a racist flag, one would have to ban the British flag. Ships bearing the Union Jack shipped over 5 million African slaves to countries all over the world, including the British colonies in North America. Other slave ships flew the Dutch flag and the Portuguese flag and the Spanish flag, and, yes, the U.S. flag. But not one single slave ship flew the Confederate flag. NOT ONE!

By the time Lincoln launched his war against the Southern states, slavery was already a dying institution. The entire country, including the South, recognized the moral evil of slavery and wanted it to end. Only a small fraction of Southerners even owned slaves. The slave trade had ended in 1808, per the U.S. Constitution, and the practice of slavery was quickly dying, too. In another few years, with the advent of agricultural machinery, slavery would have ended peacefully--just like it had in England. It didn’t take a national war and the deaths of over a half million men to end slavery in Great Britain. America’s so-called “Civil War” was absolutely unnecessary. The greed of Lincoln’s radical Republicans in the North, combined with the cold, calloused heart of Lincoln himself is responsible for the tragedy of the “Civil War.”

And look at what is happening now: in one instant--after one deranged young man killed nine black people and who ostensibly photo-shopped a picture of himself with a Confederate flag--the entire political and media establishments in the country go on an all-out crusade to remove all semblances of the Confederacy. The speed in which all of this has happened suggests that this was a planned, orchestrated event by the Powers That Be (PTB). And is it a mere coincidence that this took place at the exact same time that the U.S. Supreme Court decided to legalize same-sex marriage? I think not.

The Confederate Battle Flag flies the Saint Andrews cross. Of course, Andrew was the first disciple of Jesus Christ, brother of Simon Peter, and Christian martyr who was crucified on an X-shaped cross at around the age of 90. Andrew is the patron saint of both Russia and Scotland.

In the 1800s, up to 75% of people in the South were either Scotch or Scotch-Irish. The Confederate Battle Flag is predicated on the national flag of Scotland. It is a symbol of the Christian faith and heritage of the Celtic race.

Pastor John Weaver rightly observed, “Even the Confederate States motto, ‘Deovendickia,’ (The Lord is our Vindicator), illustrates the sovereignty and the righteousness of God. The Saint Andrews cross is also known as the Greek letter CHIA (KEE) and has historically been used to represent Jesus Christ. Why do you think people write Merry X-mas, just to give you an illustration? The ‘X’ is the Greek letter CHIA and it has been historically used for Christ. Moreover, its importance was understood by educated and uneducated people alike. When an uneducated man, one that could not write, needed to sign his name please tell me what letter he made? An ‘X,’ why? Because he was saying I am taking an oath under God. I am recognizing the sovereignty of God, the providence of God and I am pledging my faith. May I tell you the Confederate Flag is indeed a Christian flag because it has the cross of Saint Andrew, who was a Christian martyr, and the letter ‘X’ has always been used to represent Christ, and to attack the flag is to deny the sovereignty, the majesty, and the might of the Lord Jesus Christ and his divine role in our history, culture, and life.”

Many of the facts that I reference in this column were included in a message delivered several years ago by Pastor John Weaver. I want to thank John for preaching such a powerful and needed message. Read or watch Pastor Weaver’s sermon “The Truth About The Confederate Battle Flag” here:

The Truth About The Confederate Battle Flag

Combine the current attacks against Biblical and traditional marriage, the attacks against all things Confederate, the attacks against all things Christian, and the attacks against all things constitutional and what we are witnessing is a heightened example of why the Confederate Battle Flag was created to begin with. Virtually every act of federal usurpation of liberty that we are witnessing today, and have been witnessing for much of the twentieth century, is the result of Lincoln’s war against the South. Truly, we are living in Lincoln’s America, not Washington and Jefferson’s America. Washington and Jefferson’s America died at Appomattox Court House in 1865.

Instead of lowering the Confederate flag, we should be raising it.

© Chuck Baldwin


TOPICS: Government; Politics
KEYWORDS: civilwar; confederate; dixie; lostcause; race; slavery
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To: DoodleDawg

“Tariffs are meant to discourage imports, not promote them, because they are supposed to make domestic goods more cost effective.”

Exactly! Which screwed the South with its exports to Europe! European markets (especially British) proved a ready market for Southern produce and goods, and that exchange was very profitable to Southern merchants — and European, as well — who were able to buy European goods at very favorable rates (the timeless business dictum of “You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” that is the lifeblood of commerce). By raising tariffs on imported goods, the cost of doing business with Europe would become prohibitive, and the Southern economy would collapse because if Southern merchants stopped buying European goods because of the tariffs, European markets would stop buying Southern goods and produce. (Northern interests were not buying Southern products or produce, so with whom were Southern markets to trade?)


481 posted on 07/18/2015 3:42:38 PM PDT by ought-six (1u)
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To: DoodleDawg
Fast ocean going cargo ships of the 1850s were getting very large, most requiring 20 feet or more of navigational depth. No longer depending on wind power and the trade winds, they shot over in a straight line to the big Northern ports. Most southern ports did not accommodate that type of ship, as well as being out of the fast shipping lanes.

To serve all the ports, shipping companies had shallow draft side paddle vessels that were used to ship south.

Big ports, I.e. New York, Philly, etc. were break bulk operations that split/sorted goods for various ports south.

Owners could pay tariffs at the port of entry, or according to Federal law, defer payment for long periods. That meant that tariff payment might come after transshipment south. As a result, “tariff” houses were found in any port...there were dozens all over the waterways.

482 posted on 07/18/2015 4:05:48 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: ought-six
You’re joking, right? For one thing, tariffs are not exclusively paid at the point of unloading.

Yes they were. Once the goods reached shore then unless they were destined for a foreign customer and placed in a bonded warehouse the duties were collected.

For another thing, shipping goods from Europe to America is a lot quicker — and cheaper — if they are unloaded or delivered to a northern port, because delivering them to, say, Mobile or New Orleans or Galveston is twice the distance and would take twice the time and would double the cost.

So you're saying it was cheaper to ship the goods to New York, unload the goods, then load them again on another ship and travel to another port? Then why wasn't the same true for cotton exports? Why not load the cotton in New Orleans, ship it to New York, unload it, load it on another ship, and ship it to Europe? Wouldn't that also be cheaper? But that didn't happen. The overwhelming majority of cotton exports left southern ports and went to Europe. Why couldn't imports do the same?

Even today, goods manufactured in Asia are almost exclusively shipped to the American west coast, even if the purchaser of the goods is a company in Maine.

You're forgetting a few things like extensive rail lines, air lines, and the interstate highway system that makes that not only possible but also cost effective. Three things that were absent back in 1860.

483 posted on 07/18/2015 4:37:42 PM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: ought-six
Which screwed the South with its exports to Europe! European markets (especially British) proved a ready market for Southern produce and goods, and that exchange was very profitable to Southern merchants — and European, as well — who were able to buy European goods at very favorable rates (the timeless business dictum of “You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” that is the lifeblood of commerce). By raising tariffs on imported goods, the cost of doing business with Europe would become prohibitive, and the Southern economy would collapse because if Southern merchants stopped buying European goods because of the tariffs, European markets would stop buying Southern goods and produce. (Northern interests were not buying Southern products or produce, so with whom were Southern markets to trade?)

I'm looking for the reason why tariff revenues more than doubled between 1861 and 1863 if the South paid the overwhelming majority of the tariff and the Morill Tariff jacked the rates up to impossible levels. You post doesn't explain that.

But I would be interested in learning what the South imported in such huge amounts that they paid most of the tariff.

484 posted on 07/18/2015 4:40:52 PM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: DoodleDawg

“Why not load the cotton in New Orleans, ship it to New York, unload it, load it on another ship, and ship it to Europe? Wouldn’t that also be cheaper?”

I guess you never heard of Bermuda. Cotton — and rice, and sugar — loaded in, say, New Orleans was often shipped to Bermuda (part of the British Empire, don’t you know).


485 posted on 07/18/2015 4:50:49 PM PDT by ought-six (1u)
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To: ought-six
I guess you never heard of Bermuda. Cotton — and rice, and sugar — loaded in, say, New Orleans was often shipped to Bermuda (part of the British Empire, don’t you know).

Can you point me to a source where I can learn more about these trade routes?

486 posted on 07/18/2015 5:00:45 PM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: ought-six

I think it’s important to consider the dates. The Great Britain that recognized Brazil in 1825 was very different from the Great Britain that refused to recognize the Confederate States in 1861. Just think of all of the differences in the US in the last 36 years. Do you really think that, in 1979, people would not be totally outraged at gay marriage, legalized marijuana (in some states, portrayals of interracial couples on TV and movies, and a greatly relaxed attitude towards living out of wedlock?

As far as continuing to recognize countries that had slavery, there is a very large difference between continuing relations and starting new relations. The only apt comparison would be to point to a major country that Great Britain recognized after 1861 that had slavery. I suspect you can find some small Arab or Central Asian Emirate or Khanate that they did recognize after 1861, but certainly not a country the size and importance of the CSA.

Your statement that Great Britain abolished slavery in name only, because they continued to practice what amounted to slavery in India and Africa is partially true. The big point is the statement “what amounted to slavery”. The same point could be directed at many areas of the American South after Reconstruction, what with Black Codes, the Convict Lease system, Share Cropping, and Jim Crow laws. But, no one claimed that slavery was not abolished in the US. The same is true in the British Empire. Slavery was abolished in name in 1833. It took many decades for the practice to catch up with the law (same as in the US).

So my point remains the same. Great Britain refused to recognize the CSA due to the dislike of the Working Class of England of slavery (although the defeat of the Army of Northern Virginia at Antietam certainly helped). Further proof of this is the motion that the cotton workers of Manchester passed and sent in a letter to Lincoln. I quote from the motion “ That this meeting, recognising the common brotherhood of man-kind, and the sacred and inalienable right of every human being to personal freedom and equal protection, records its detestation of negro slavery in America, and of the attempt of the rebellious Southern slaveholders to organise on the great American continent a nation having slavery as its basis.”


487 posted on 07/18/2015 6:10:57 PM PDT by Team Cuda
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To: DoodleDawg

“I’m looking for the reason why tariff revenues more than doubled between 1861 and 1863 if the South paid the overwhelming majority of the tariff...”

Revenues rose between 1861 and 1865 due to: ever-increasing tariffs (that fell on Northern interests since the Southern states were not paying them); income taxes (yes, Lincoln initiated the first income tax in U.S. history); loans (Northern apologists for how well the country was doing economically during the Civil War ALWAYS include loans in their numbers to inflate “revenues”).

“...and the Morill Tariff jacked the rates up to impossible levels. You post doesn’t explain that.”

It did, increasingly (the tariff rate was raised three times), and it fell principally on Northern interests.

“But I would be interested in learning what the South imported in such huge amounts that they paid most of the tariff.”

A lot of machinery and manufactured goods, that were (1) of better quality than anything manufactured in the North; and (2) were less expensive than similar products manufactured in the North.


488 posted on 07/18/2015 6:22:45 PM PDT by ought-six (1u)
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To: Team Cuda

“As far as continuing to recognize countries that had slavery, there is a very large difference between continuing relations and starting new relations. The only apt comparison would be to point to a major country that Great Britain recognized after 1861 that had slavery. I suspect you can find some small Arab or Central Asian Emirate or Khanate that they did recognize after 1861, but certainly not a country the size and importance of the CSA.”

The United States, which did not abolish slavery until the ratification of the 13th Amendment in 1865.

“Great Britain refused to recognize the CSA due to the dislike of the Working Class of England of slavery.”

How quaint. Now tell me what Parliament had to say about the matter of recognizing or not recognizing the CSA. Last I checked, Parliament set policy, not some laborers in Soho.


489 posted on 07/18/2015 6:29:51 PM PDT by ought-six (1u)
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To: ought-six

Well, first off, Manchester is over 200 miles from Soho,so I’m not sure where that reference came from.

Secondly, the House of Commons is a representative body, so I would hope that the Members of Parliament would care would the voters thought on policy.

Thirdly, I chose to highlight the feelings of the cotton workers of Manchester because they were directly impacted by the reduction in cotton supplies because of the embargo, but still chose to go on record against recognizing the CSA because of slavery. They felt very strongly that recognizing the CSA was wrong, even though they were losing their jobs.

Lastly, still waiting for you to provide the identity of a major country that had slavery that the UK recognized AFTER 1861.


490 posted on 07/18/2015 7:03:31 PM PDT by Team Cuda
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It should be lowered. Not because of racism but because it was a symbol for the Democratic Party (y’know, like Obama) and for treason. Frankly, any defenders of it should learn their own history.


491 posted on 07/18/2015 7:31:12 PM PDT by vickersvimy
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To: DoodleDawg
"I'm looking for the reason why tariff revenues more than doubled between 1861 and 1863"

Revenue did not double. Tariff revenue dropped substantially.

492 posted on 07/19/2015 4:27:26 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: DoodleDawg
"Can you point me to a source about the trade routes?

Maybe this will help......

The success of the shipping trade of New England in the early 19th century was a deliberate effort of mercantilism, in which the South at first willingly participated.

The federal government set out deliberately to encourage the commercial trades there, especially ship-building and shipping. The raw material for Northern factories, and the cargoes of Northern merchantmen, would come from the South.

The July 4, 1789, tariff was the first substantive legislation passed by the new American government. But in addition to the new duties, it reduced by 10 percent or more the tariff paid for goods arriving only in American craft.

It also required domestic construction for American ship registry. Navigation acts in the same decade stipulated that foreign-built and foreign-owned vessels were taxed 50 cents per ton when entering U.S. ports, while U.S.-built and -owned ones paid only six cents per ton. Furthermore, the U.S. ones paid annually, while foreign ones paid upon every entry.

This effectively blocked off U.S. coastal trade to all but vessels built and owned in the United States.

The navigation act of 1817 had made it official, providing “that no goods, wares, or merchandise shall be imported under penalty of forfeiture thereof, from one port in the United States to another port in the United States, in a vessel belonging wholly or in part to a subject of any foreign power.”

The point of all this was to protect and grow the shipping industry of New England, and it worked. By 1795, the combination of foreign complication and American protection put 92 percent of all imports and 86 percent of all exports in American-flag vessels. American ship owners’ annual earnings shot up between 1790 and 1807, from $5.9 million to $42.1 million.

New England shipping took a severe hit during the War of 1812 and the embargo. After the war ended, the British flooded America with manufactured goods to try to drive out the nascent American industries. They chose the port of New York for their dumping ground, in part because the British had been feeding cargoes to Boston all through the war to encourage anti-war sentiment in New England. New York was the more starved, therefore it became the port of choice. The dumping bankrupted many towns, but it assured New York of its sea-trading supremacy. In the decades to come. New Yorkers made the most of the situation.

Four Northern and Mid-Atlantic ports still had the lion's share of the shipping. But Boston and Baltimore mainly served regional markets. Philadelphia's shipping interest had built up trade with the major seaports on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts, especially as Pennsylvania's coal regions opened up in the 1820s. But New York was king. Its merchants had the ready money, it had a superior harbor, it kept freight rates down, and by 1825 some 4,000 coastal trade vessels per year arrived there. In 1828 it was estimated that the clearances from New York to ports on the Delaware Bay alone were 16,508 tons, and to the Chesapeake Bay 51,000 tons.

Early and mid-19th century Atlantic trade was based on “packet lines” — groups of vessels offering scheduled services. It was a coastal trade at first, but when the Black Ball Line started running between New York and Liverpool in 1817, it became the way to do business across the Atlantic.

The reason for success was to have a good cargo going each way. The New York packet lines succeeded because they took in all the eastbound cotton cargoes from the U.S. The northeast did not have enough volume of paying freight on its own.

So American vessels, usually owned in the Northeast, sailed off to a cotton port, carrying goods for the southern market. There they loaded cotton, or occasionally naval stores or timber, for Europe. They steamed back from Europe loaded with manufactured goods, raw materials like hemp or coal, and occasionally immigrants.

Since this “triangle trade” involved a domestic leg, foreign vessels were excluded from it under the 1817 law, except a few English ones that could substitute a Canadian port for a Northern U.S. one. Since it was subsidized by the U.S. government, it was going to continue to be protectionist, and not subject to competition.

By creating a three-cornered trade in the ‘cotton triangle,’ New York dragged the commerce between the southern ports and Europe out of its normal course some two hundred miles to collect a heavy toll upon it.

This trade might perfectly well have taken the form of direct shuttles between Charleston, Savannah, Mobile, or New Orleans on the one hand and Liverpool or Havre on the other, leaving New York far to one side had it not interfered in this way. To clinch this abnormal arrangement, moreover, New York developed the coastal packet lines without which it would have been extremely difficult to make the east-bound trips of the ocean packets profitable.

Even when the Southern cotton bound for Europe did not put in at the wharves of Sandy Hook or the East River, unloading and reloading, the combined income from interests, commissions, freight, insurance, and other profits took perhaps 40 cents into New York of every dollar paid for southern cotton.

The record shows that ports with moderate quantities of outbound freight could not keep up with the New York competition. Boston started a packet line in 1833 that, to secure outbound cargo, detoured to Charleston for cotton. But about the only other local commodity it could find to move to Europe was Bostonians. Since most passengers en route to England did not want the time delays in a layover in South Carolina, the lines failed.

As for the cotton ports themselves, they did not crave enough imports to justify packet lines until 1851, when New Orleans hosted one sailing to Liverpool.

Yet New York by the mid-1850s could claim sixteen lines to Liverpool, three to London, three to Havre, two to Antwerp, and one each to Glasgow, Rotterdam, and Marseilles. This was subsidized by the federal post office patronage procedure.

U.S. foreign trade rose in value from $134 million in 1830 to $318 million in 1850. It tripled again in the 1850s. Between two-thirds and three-fourths of those imports entered through the port of New York.

This meant that any trading the South did, had to go through New York. Direct trade from Charleston and Savannah during this period was stagnant. The total shipping that entered from foreign countries in 1851 in the port of Charleston was 92,000 tons, in the port of New York, 1,448,000. Relatively little tariff money was collected in the port authority in Charleston.

According to a Treasury report, the net revenue of all the ports of South Carolina during 1859 was a mere $234,237; during 1860 it was $309,222.

New York shipping interests, using the Navigation Laws and in collaboration with the US Congress, effectively closed the market off from competitive shipping, and in spite of the inefficiencies, were able to control the movement of Southern goods.

493 posted on 07/19/2015 5:10:50 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge
Revenue did not double. Tariff revenue dropped substantially.

In his December 1864 state of the union message to Congress Lincoln put tariff revenue for the prior fiscal year at over $102 million. That's double for 1860-1861.

494 posted on 07/19/2015 5:12:34 AM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: PeaRidge
Maybe this will help......

I think it did. Especially this line here:

"As for the cotton ports themselves, they did not crave enough imports to justify packet lines until 1851, when New Orleans hosted one sailing to Liverpool."

Your article describes it as a triangle trade where west-bound ships loaded with imports and immigrants land in northern ports and discharge their cargo. Then they have to travel down to the cotton ports and load with exports destined for Europe. That seems to support the fact that the South imported comparatively little in the way of imports since if they demand for imported goods was greater then it would make sense for the ships to load in southern ports with cotton and return to southern ports with imported goods. Instead what goods southern consumers did demand could be met by smaller packet ships.

495 posted on 07/19/2015 5:30:58 AM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: DoodleDawg
Looks like you were originally making this claim:

"I'm looking for the reason why tariff revenues more than doubled between 1861 and 1863".

.......And it had major declines for that period. So is there a point?

496 posted on 07/19/2015 5:33:55 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: DoodleDawg

And your point is?


497 posted on 07/19/2015 5:37:53 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge
.......And it had major declines for that period. So is there a point?

And I'm asking where the decline was? If tariff revenue in the year before the war was in the $50 million range and the tariff revenue for 1863 was in the $100 million range. If the South did account for most imports and most tariff payments then the revenue should have dropped to near nothing and stayed there.

498 posted on 07/19/2015 5:48:24 AM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: PeaRidge
And your point is?

That according to your own source the Southern demand for imports was so small that it did not justify shipping the goods directly to the Southern ports. And therefore the South could not generate the majority of tariff revenue as claimed.

499 posted on 07/19/2015 5:50:38 AM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: DoodleDawg
"And I'm asking where the decline was? If tariff revenue in the year before the war was in the $50 million range...."

Tariff revenue for year 1860 was $56.1 with a federal debt of $64.8.

I do not know when the tariff deposits in Southern tariff houses stopped being transferred, nor do I know when Northern merchants stopped paying their tariff deposits on goods (sold South) to the government.

But according to Treasury Dept. data, tariff deposits dropped to $41.5 for calendar year 1861.

For calendar year 1862 and forward, data includes the new variables of raw war material imports, and foreign goods now having to be imported as a substitute for Southern goods no longer available.

500 posted on 07/19/2015 7:06:23 AM PDT by PeaRidge
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