Posted on 05/11/2012 6:10:55 PM PDT by Manic_Episode
Is it a sin to vote for Mitt Romney?
Well first off if you're not a Christian don't bother reading any further. This does not apply to you and your comments/scoffs) are not solicited. Leave now.
For those of you who are saved by the blood of The Lamb and are disciples of The Lord Jesus Christ I would ask you to consider the following:
Gods Criminal Justice System VS Mans Criminal Justice System
Here in the USA when we run afoul of the law we are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
In Gods system we are guilty until proven innocent,
Romans 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (emphasis mine)
ALL have sinned. Not some, not my neighbor, but ME and YOU. ALL. We are guilty, you and I.
In the criminal justice system of the United States the punishment has to fit the crime. In many countries around the world today Sharia Law requires that a thief's hand be cut off if caught for stealing. This seems harsh and brutal compared to the offense. We have the death penalty here in the USA but you have to do something really bad to be sentenced to die.
In Gods criminal justice system we are all guilty and sentenced to death. Done deal. It has already happened whether you know it or not:
Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death,"
So we all have sinned and the wage of that sin is death. Does the penalty fit the crime? Is this fair and just?
Absolutely! God is all about justice, kindness and righteousness.
Jeremiah 9:24
24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
So under Gods criminal justice system one can incur the death penalty for lying? That is just? The punishment fits the crime?
Yes. First of all, I, for one, have committed WAY more than just tell a fib. After all, sin is breaking one of the Ten Commandments. I am a serial offender. I am a sinner. No two ways around it. When it comes to keeping Gods commands I am a complete failure. I am bankrupt.
Understand that Gods Holiness is so great and awesome and unfathomable that it cannot be defiled by our sin and justice DEMANDS that sin be cast out of Gods presence.
The best we can come up with, our very best efforts we can muster when we try as hard as we possibly can, God refers to these as "filthy rags",
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;
The literal translation of "filthy rags" is even worse than it sounds. Try "menstruous rags" on for size. Ok, some of you are trying them on for size in real life, you know what I'm talking about. Gross.
Our best works are disgusting to God. More of Gods so called justice? Yes, when you understand His holy nature, yes indeed.
Interesting thing about Gods Justice system; He is quite reasonable in that He sets a certain price for our penalty and accepts that price from whoever can afford it.
That price is our very life, but if someone could afford to pay it off for us God would accept it.
It is such a high price that I could not afford to pay for my kids penalty because I am in debt for my own sin, but what if someone came along who could afford to pay my dept? Someone who had not incurred their own death penalty. Someone who was sinless and loved me enough to pay for my sin with their innocent life? God would and does accept that payment.
This is Gods criminal justice system: John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:11-12
11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Jesus, I accept you as my Savior and my Lord. Thank you for loving me and for paying my way. I am in your debt forever.
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Gods Criminal Justice System VS Mans Criminal Justice System Part 2
Here in the US someone can be convicted of murder without ever having actually killed anyone, but because they were "in on it" they are guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
In order to be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder a prosecutor must prove 3 elements to gain a conviction.
1.) The defendant intended to agree and did agree with someone to commit murder;
2.) At the time of the agreement, the defendant and [one or more of] the other alleged member[s] of the conspiracy intended that one or more of them would commit murder;
3.) (The/One of the) defendant[s] of coparticipant[s] or (both/ all) of them] committed [at least one of] the overt act[s] alleged to accomplish the murder;
Examples of this crime would be hiring a hitman. The person paying for the murder is just as guilty as the hitman.
Charles Manson claims he never killed anyone but he has been in prison for nearly 40 years for conspiracy.
WHEN SYSTEMS COLLIDE
Abortion is a perfectly legal murder in mans criminal justice system, but I submit that in Gods criminal justice system it is a sin of the most heinous sort, one that brutally ends the life of our most vulnerable and innocent members to the tune of a staggering 54 MILLION VICTIMS in the US alone, and counting.
Those directly responsible are quite obvious, but what of the coparticipants? Those that have conspired against these 54 million vulnerable innocent crime victims? It takes a massively wide conspiracy of unbelievable proportions to accomplish a crime of this unfathomable magnitude.
I submit that all those who keep this sin legal are just as guilty as those who are direct participants.
Abortion is a main plank of the Democratic platform. When you vote for a party you are putting your seal of approval on that platform. You are agreeing and supporting their goals when you cast your vote for their party.
You cannot say you disagree with their main plank yet support that main plank with your vote. This is contradictory. They are not hiding this plank so your vote is cast with open eyes knowing this.
We as human beings are amazing in our ability to justify our actions and if we are creative enough we can justify anything, including conspiring to murder 54 million vulnerable and innocent lives.
You have blood on your hands.
The excuses come fast and easy but there is no excuse for sin. None. We must take responsibility for our own sins and yes, I am absolutely saying that voting for a party that openly supports sin is enabling that sin and participating in that sin and sinning right along with that sin.
The creative justification part of us will immediately start pointing fingers at all sorts of things trying to muddy the waters, but what can possibly top 54 MILLION SENSELESS MURDERS OF THE VULNERABLE AND INNOCENT!!?? NOTHING!!
Not war, not compassion for the poor, not social policy, not fiscal policy. Nothing. This slaughter on our own soil makes the Holocaust look like childs play in comparison.
So in sheer body count alone there is no more important thing we should be voting for above this.
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I wrote these a few years ago and would add the following thoughts:
Mitt Romney, despite his shallow words to the contrary, has a clear record of supporting abortion (not to mention homosexuality, forced health care, global warming, anti gun legislation, liberal judges, etc etc) and as such I believe I would become a co-participant in conspiracy to commit murder if I were to support him with my vote to lead our country.
I also believe what is a sin for one man may not be a sin for another based on my understanding of this passage:
Romans 14:23
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
This passage explains that if you think it is a sin then for you it is indeed a sin whether is really is a sin or not, and for others of stronger faith it is not a sin.
As I explained in my now long winded article I believe voting for someone pro choice is a sin for me, I would then ask this:
BASED ON SCRIPTURE AND REASON, how could I believe otherwise?
Don't equivocate that the survival of our country depends on Mitt winning because Obama is the boogieman.
I want to know where the flaws in my reasoning may be.
If you are a Christian and believe otherwise, how did you come to your conclusion based on scripture and reason?
I’ve not replied to you because I’ve not had a chance to watch the entire interview, but barring the unforseen I would be very happy to vote for you Sir! Perhaps more.
Thank you.
We’re running a completely grassroots old-fashioned front porch campaign, albeit with a twenty-first century twist. So, I have time to actually talk to real folks. Drop me a line if I can answer questions you might have about what we’re trying to do.
You can also talk directly to me, and many of our other leaders from across the country, on one of our twice-weekly America’s Summit, Restore the Republic, calls.
http://www.americaspartynews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7216&posts=9&start=1
Our scripture was recorded by men, but was inspired by God and is not contradictory when properly understood.
When you run into an apparent contradiction, you need to step back and examine the verses and context more carefully. Sometimes consulting other Christians and commetaries will point out what you are missing.
The verse you quoted doesn't actually mention salvation, so you need to be careful about assuming it does, when such an assumption runs counter to other verses that are clear and unambiguous.
The context of that verse is in preparing the vine to bear more fruit, not in preparing the believer for heaven. There are at least a couple of ways that verse can be understood. "Taken away", can refer to removal from earth. It may also refer to pretenders who profess Christ but have not internalized that with faith.
And I don't have time today to go into the fact that Islam's Koran was also written by a man and has plenty of contradictions including what it says about prior scripture.
contradictory (ˌkɒntrəˈdɪktərɪ) — adj
1. inconsistent; incompatible
2. given to argument and contention: a contradictory person
3. logic contrary Compare subcontrary (of a pair of statements) unable both to be true or both to be false under the same circumstances
Good, you understand the meaning of contradictory.
Now I suggest you consider trying to understand that verse in a way not contradictory to the rest of scripture.
Too bad you still don't. It is facinating to watch people jump through hoops trying to shoehorn the entire New Testament into the faulty interpretation of one particular line. The bad news is that these books have many authors, multiple agendas, and frequent errors in translation and transcription.
Pot calls kettle black. We have many passages indicating that we can't lose our salvation, including several in the book of John, where you quoted that one verse from. The verse you quoted doesn't mention salvation, but you want to overturn many passages of scripture with that one verse, by insisting it can mean you can lose your salvation, when it doesn't say that. And to insist on that, then you must assume that scripture is contradictory and was not inspired by God. In fact, your interpretation is making the book of John look contradictory.
If you vote for Obama, you're already there.
You are over thinking this thing. Obama has launched a direct frontal attack on Christianity through his health care bill. There is no indication that he would relent if he is reelected.
K,I.S.S. - (keep it simple, stupid) usually works pretty well for me, when I try to decide what to do.
ABO.
Building (rebuilding?) a conservative movement is all well and good. But, you do not start remodeling your house while it is on fire.
It is "pointless and tiresome" because you keep bringing up the same type of examples which do not prove the point under consideration. When did Daniel vote for Nebuchadnezzar? Belshazzar? When did Paul vote for Nero? Obeying and serving an evil ruler is different than voluntarily voting for one. God has granted this nation freedoms not known in many places. One of those freedoms is to vote OR NOT VOTE as the situation dictates. Christians to vote their conscience seriously need to consider the option of not voting for any candidate when both are enemies of the Cross.
Not exactly the most compelling example. It would have still taken another 537 Bush voters (besides you) to make a difference or 268 other people flipping their votes from Bush to Gore and you not voting to make a difference. Even in that extremely close election, your one vote was essentially insignificant.
Let's not overstate the importance of any one vote. Besides I have not called for people to sit out the election below the Presidential line. In fact, I am persuading the conservatives I know who have stated they are sitting out this election to vote down the ticket for those people who will thwart the agendas of both Obama and Romney.
See post 149. As Revel points out any argument which states a non-vote for Romney is a vote for Obama is exactly mirrored by the argument that a non-vote for Obama is a vote for Romney. I am a total ABOR (anyone but Obama or Romney). Just because I'm more opposed to Obama, it doesn't follow that my vote is available to Romney.
To your example:
Flaw #1: I am not compelled to vote. It is perfectly within my Biblical and Constitutional rights to abstain if I so chose.
Flaw #2 (also known as the category fallacy): Your example assumes that I can be persuaded to vote for Romney, in other words, I can be moved from one category to another. (This is also crudely referred to as the "if my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle" fallacy.) Since I am firmly opposed to Romney, it could be argued that I could be just as easily persuaded to vote for Obama since I rather fight the enemy outside the gates than an enemy inside the gates (but I won't). See post 149.
Flaw #3 (also known as the proportions fallacy): Your example puts too much importance on one act which distorts the reality of the situation. My vote (or yours) means basically nothing in the overall scheme of things. See post 191. My state went for McCain by about 186K votes (or 15 percentage points). For Obama to carry this state, far more 2008 McCain voters than just me are going to have to decide that Romney is a bridge too far.
Flaw #4: Your example is a popular vote example. While the popular vote correlates to some degree, it is the electoral college which decides the Presidential race. In this regard, your example is irrelevant. Practically speaking, if Romney needs my vote to carry my state, he's already on the losing side of a historical landslide.
By your logic, I'm going to be contributing to the Obama campaign as well because I'm not giving any money to the Romney campaign. I'm sure you'll balk at this but think about it: giving my money to a campaign is as voluntary an act as my selection of whom I'm going to vote for. A non-vote for Obama and Romney is not a vote for either man just as not giving money to either man is a lack of financial support for both men.
If only you had been in charge of the Dem's GOTV in 2008, we wouldn't have suffered under Obama these past three years....
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I say let it burn and build a brand new one.
So, in other words, your Heaven is populated with not just people like Mother Theresa, but also KKK members who honestly believe that Jesus Christ is God’s son, that he died for our sins, and that His word is the the only path to Salvation.
No thanks. Not buying any.
Yes Presidio,
Sorry for the slow response, was on vacation.
Yes, heaven will be populated with murderers like Moses, King David and Paul (formerly known as the Christian killing Saul).
It will be populated with adulterers and fornicators like Abraham, King David, Samson and Solomon.
It will be populated with people who knew the truth yet denied Christ at times like Peter.
There will be people who didn’t trust what God said, or demonstrated appalling lack of faith at times, like Adam, Eve and Elijah.
There will be thieves like the one of the two that hung next to Jesus. There will be harlots like Rahab.
It will be be populated with hypocrites of all kinds.
There will be no perfect people in Heaven except for God. Yet they will all be perfect because they will have the imputed righteousness of Jesus.
“Come let us reason together, though your sins are like scarlett they shall be white as snow.”
There is another path to salvation. Never sin.
By the way, given enough time God would convinced a believing KKK member that what he was doing was wrong. But accepting salvation doesn’t instantly transform a person to be Christlike. That takes a lot of time and effort. And I’m not sure any of us get there. Even the most mature Christians I have known are quick to admit that they are still discovering faults.
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