Posted on 05/11/2012 6:10:55 PM PDT by Manic_Episode
Is it a sin to vote for Mitt Romney?
Well first off if you're not a Christian don't bother reading any further. This does not apply to you and your comments/scoffs) are not solicited. Leave now.
For those of you who are saved by the blood of The Lamb and are disciples of The Lord Jesus Christ I would ask you to consider the following:
Gods Criminal Justice System VS Mans Criminal Justice System
Here in the USA when we run afoul of the law we are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
In Gods system we are guilty until proven innocent,
Romans 3:23 "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (emphasis mine)
ALL have sinned. Not some, not my neighbor, but ME and YOU. ALL. We are guilty, you and I.
In the criminal justice system of the United States the punishment has to fit the crime. In many countries around the world today Sharia Law requires that a thief's hand be cut off if caught for stealing. This seems harsh and brutal compared to the offense. We have the death penalty here in the USA but you have to do something really bad to be sentenced to die.
In Gods criminal justice system we are all guilty and sentenced to death. Done deal. It has already happened whether you know it or not:
Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death,"
So we all have sinned and the wage of that sin is death. Does the penalty fit the crime? Is this fair and just?
Absolutely! God is all about justice, kindness and righteousness.
Jeremiah 9:24
24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
So under Gods criminal justice system one can incur the death penalty for lying? That is just? The punishment fits the crime?
Yes. First of all, I, for one, have committed WAY more than just tell a fib. After all, sin is breaking one of the Ten Commandments. I am a serial offender. I am a sinner. No two ways around it. When it comes to keeping Gods commands I am a complete failure. I am bankrupt.
Understand that Gods Holiness is so great and awesome and unfathomable that it cannot be defiled by our sin and justice DEMANDS that sin be cast out of Gods presence.
The best we can come up with, our very best efforts we can muster when we try as hard as we possibly can, God refers to these as "filthy rags",
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;
The literal translation of "filthy rags" is even worse than it sounds. Try "menstruous rags" on for size. Ok, some of you are trying them on for size in real life, you know what I'm talking about. Gross.
Our best works are disgusting to God. More of Gods so called justice? Yes, when you understand His holy nature, yes indeed.
Interesting thing about Gods Justice system; He is quite reasonable in that He sets a certain price for our penalty and accepts that price from whoever can afford it.
That price is our very life, but if someone could afford to pay it off for us God would accept it.
It is such a high price that I could not afford to pay for my kids penalty because I am in debt for my own sin, but what if someone came along who could afford to pay my dept? Someone who had not incurred their own death penalty. Someone who was sinless and loved me enough to pay for my sin with their innocent life? God would and does accept that payment.
This is Gods criminal justice system: John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:11-12
11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Jesus, I accept you as my Savior and my Lord. Thank you for loving me and for paying my way. I am in your debt forever.
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Gods Criminal Justice System VS Mans Criminal Justice System Part 2
Here in the US someone can be convicted of murder without ever having actually killed anyone, but because they were "in on it" they are guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
In order to be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder a prosecutor must prove 3 elements to gain a conviction.
1.) The defendant intended to agree and did agree with someone to commit murder;
2.) At the time of the agreement, the defendant and [one or more of] the other alleged member[s] of the conspiracy intended that one or more of them would commit murder;
3.) (The/One of the) defendant[s] of coparticipant[s] or (both/ all) of them] committed [at least one of] the overt act[s] alleged to accomplish the murder;
Examples of this crime would be hiring a hitman. The person paying for the murder is just as guilty as the hitman.
Charles Manson claims he never killed anyone but he has been in prison for nearly 40 years for conspiracy.
WHEN SYSTEMS COLLIDE
Abortion is a perfectly legal murder in mans criminal justice system, but I submit that in Gods criminal justice system it is a sin of the most heinous sort, one that brutally ends the life of our most vulnerable and innocent members to the tune of a staggering 54 MILLION VICTIMS in the US alone, and counting.
Those directly responsible are quite obvious, but what of the coparticipants? Those that have conspired against these 54 million vulnerable innocent crime victims? It takes a massively wide conspiracy of unbelievable proportions to accomplish a crime of this unfathomable magnitude.
I submit that all those who keep this sin legal are just as guilty as those who are direct participants.
Abortion is a main plank of the Democratic platform. When you vote for a party you are putting your seal of approval on that platform. You are agreeing and supporting their goals when you cast your vote for their party.
You cannot say you disagree with their main plank yet support that main plank with your vote. This is contradictory. They are not hiding this plank so your vote is cast with open eyes knowing this.
We as human beings are amazing in our ability to justify our actions and if we are creative enough we can justify anything, including conspiring to murder 54 million vulnerable and innocent lives.
You have blood on your hands.
The excuses come fast and easy but there is no excuse for sin. None. We must take responsibility for our own sins and yes, I am absolutely saying that voting for a party that openly supports sin is enabling that sin and participating in that sin and sinning right along with that sin.
The creative justification part of us will immediately start pointing fingers at all sorts of things trying to muddy the waters, but what can possibly top 54 MILLION SENSELESS MURDERS OF THE VULNERABLE AND INNOCENT!!?? NOTHING!!
Not war, not compassion for the poor, not social policy, not fiscal policy. Nothing. This slaughter on our own soil makes the Holocaust look like childs play in comparison.
So in sheer body count alone there is no more important thing we should be voting for above this.
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I wrote these a few years ago and would add the following thoughts:
Mitt Romney, despite his shallow words to the contrary, has a clear record of supporting abortion (not to mention homosexuality, forced health care, global warming, anti gun legislation, liberal judges, etc etc) and as such I believe I would become a co-participant in conspiracy to commit murder if I were to support him with my vote to lead our country.
I also believe what is a sin for one man may not be a sin for another based on my understanding of this passage:
Romans 14:23
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
This passage explains that if you think it is a sin then for you it is indeed a sin whether is really is a sin or not, and for others of stronger faith it is not a sin.
As I explained in my now long winded article I believe voting for someone pro choice is a sin for me, I would then ask this:
BASED ON SCRIPTURE AND REASON, how could I believe otherwise?
Don't equivocate that the survival of our country depends on Mitt winning because Obama is the boogieman.
I want to know where the flaws in my reasoning may be.
If you are a Christian and believe otherwise, how did you come to your conclusion based on scripture and reason?
You are right. Ignore the foolish and the damned.
Dear FRiend MHGinTN...
Thanks for taking a moment to share your thoughts. You asked some questions and I will attempt to answer them because you are a friend.
“Do you believe this Republic will survive another four years of the little barry bastard commie and his gaggle of thuggish goons?”
“Do you think Romney and Obama would appoint the same judges to the SCOTUS?”
I believe America, like Gulliver, has reached a point where it is tied down with millions of threads. It is an empire in decline. Liberty has declined steadily during the past 30 years - after electing both Republican and Democrat Presidents. People are no longer free in their persons, their property, their liberties, their privacy or in the promise America once held so strongly. The center of the world of financial capital has shifted overseas. There are now more IPOs in Hong Kong than in America and London combined. Capital follows freedom.
Please do not miss that every POTUS is to blame - and more importantly, Congress is to blame, regardless of party. They are ALL guilty.
If Republicans were conservatives with balls, we could easily survive Obama or RINOmney. Unfortunately, republicans are neutered and can only sing soprano now. They happily sing in harmony with Democrats to gut conservatism. Unless they can grow a pair or we can replace the Republican Eunuchs with vigorous, virile and potent conservatives, not a thing will change.
Frankly, FRiend, I do not believe conservatives understand the full impact of what has happened to the country. They seem to believe that if we just lower taxes, the financial woes of the USA will disappear. They seem to believe, if we just win the Presidency and appoint some good judges, all will resume as it was during the years we grew up. I no longer believe EITHER of the current candidates can change the direction of the ship.
So to answer your question in a word, sure, the country will survive temporarily. Can we survive RINOmney? Sure, we can survive him temporarily. Neither will make the changes that will last and keep us from furthering the decline. Neither has the courage or conviction.
“BTW, the analogy presented by presidio is valid if you were comparing the purchases of Coke with other soft drinks of similar nature, with a given background purchasing populace who will choose either coke or any other soft drink. “
I don’t think the analogy was logically valid at all. I answered the post according to its folly. If by taking away a vote from the total makes it require one fewer vote for Zero to be elected, then taking away a vote also makes it require one fewer vote to elect RINOmney.
I suggest this is more realistic:
Three scenarios may occur:
1. Zero landslide - my vote doesn’t matter, and frankly, yours doesn’t either.
2. RINOmney landslide - my vote doesn’t matter, and frankly, yours doesn’t either.
3. EXTREMELY close election - my vote won’t change the outcome, unless my vote be located in a state that provides the required Electoral College votes needed to win. Unlikely, and I’m in a blue state anyway. If you are in a very close state, then maybe yours will be the “vote that counts”. It is, however extremely unlikely that your individual vote will be the vote that turns your state. My state had over 6 million voters in 2008.
My voting and efforts in giving can, however, impact some down-ticket races and money can impact far away conservative races.
In the end, I am going to follow my own conscience with my own vote, seeking to elect conservatives. I don’t intend to tell anyone else to how to vote and I smile when they try to tell me how to vote.
blessings,
ampu
Rational adult? Yeah, that's really on display. (/sarcasm)
CommerceComet wrote:
“However, there is a difference between someone who isn’t a friend of the cross and someone who is an enemy of the cross.”
I see. Jesus notwithstanding? “He who isn’t with Me is against Me.” Your categories are just that, your categories.
As far as the hostility of the Mormons go, yes, I’m quite convinced of it. I have read a great deal of Mormon literature, that is, what their leaders have written in the last hundred and a half years or so, spent quite a lot of time in Utah, and know quite a few of them. Hence my characterization of Mormonism as neo-pagan and post-Christian.
However, voting for president is not about who is a Christian and who is not. It is about who will govern according to the Constitution, follow the law, and not go against natural law/conscience. Jimmy Carter claimed to be a Christian. He even taught “Sunday School” regularly. Yet he was a disaster as president. If we get both a Christian and one who governs by the Constitution, then, yes of course, that would be the best.
Mitt Romney was my last choice (except for Ron Paul). Nevertheless he is not as bad as Obama. That is my analysis. It is far from a hearty endorsement. But that, for me, is the bottom line.
Two things are true: First, a vote for some other third party candidate at this point in history or a non-vote is a half-vote for Obama. I will not give Obama a half-vote. He acts contrary to the Constitution and the principles on which this nation was founded. Obama must go. Second, a Republican president, however lacking in conservative principles, can be pressured by conservatives into doing the right thing. Obama cannot be. Obama must go.
“This is covered in like the first class of Statistics 101.”
Must be that new math the kids are learning. No wonder they can’t get anything right.
You don’t get it. You can reverse and apply your whole argument to Romney. It would be just as valid or invalid. Therefore, according to your argument then Romney would come out the winner. Your whole argument is therefore, nonsense.
Now I don’t want either of them. So if I vote for neither of them then it is a vote for Ron Paul even if I don’t pull the lever for Ron Paul. Not that Ron Paul is so great either. And I am not saying I am voting for him, But if I pull the lever for him then something really incredible happens. I get to cast two votes for Ron Paul. The one I cast by not voting for Romney or Obama. And the one I cast by pulling Ron Paul’s lever.
Now that is pretty cool. Maybe your math is useful after all.
Maybe you don't see. Jesus also said "he who is not against us is for us." (Mark 9:40) Which principle to use obviously depends on the context. You seem to agree that Mormonism is opposed to true Christianity and since Mitt is a true believer, he would fit in the "he who isn't with me" rather than "he who is not against us". Maybe they are my categories but I believe they have Biblical support - sometimes neutrality is an issue, sometimes it's not. I'm still waiting for the compelling Biblical argument that it is okay to vote for an enemy of the Cross to such a high position of power and influence.
However, voting for president is not about who is a Christian and who is not.
I think that you're arguing in circles. I have already stated that I don't require theological purity in the candidates. That's what started the whole "enemies of the cross" discussion.
First, a vote for some other third party candidate at this point in history or a non-vote is a half-vote for Obama.
A non-vote for Romney is not a vote for Obama. As Revel points out, if that argument is true, I'm also giving Romney half a vote by withholding my vote from Obama, so they cancel out.
Second, a Republican president, however lacking in conservative principles, can be pressured by conservatives into doing the right thing.
You mean just like George W. Bush? Dubya was far more conservative than Romney. If the Republicans in Congress won't fight the unpopular President from the other party, what makes you think that they'll stand up to a President of their own party? The GOP-e is going to be pressuring the Republicans in Congress to go along with the President because "we can't afford to have a failed Republican Presidency." I'm very skeptical that Mitt Romney can be pulled right when his every instinct is liberal.
A Romney, with a likely more conservative (by necessity) VP and more conservatives in congress can be moved toward the center/right...maybe not too very much, but way, way, more than the current Bozo-in-charge.
OK, the tongue in cheek part is "conservatives" as used above...so I'll modify that to "not-so-much-RINOs"
You/we, aren't going to change the world this year. We are certainly not going to change the world for the better if we sit home in a snit because our guy (or our former governor) didn't get the call.
What you/we need to do is (are)
a. Drop the one-cause-fits-all demands.
b. Actually work for any and all likely (or more similar to) conservative candidates - at any level.
c. And make it clear to the candidates and office holders that "tea party" isn't limited to a bus tour of the USA.
Sorry; the primaries are moving in such a scripted manner that I forget that neither you nor I have had a chance to be ignored yet.
I'm not sure what it is about this fairly straightforward concept that is not getting through to you, but no, you can't reverse it. You have one vote. Either you use it to vote for the candidate with the best chance to defeat Obama, or Obama needs one less vote to win. If you choose not to vote, or to vote for a candidate with no realistic chance of winning, then you have aided Obama.
This analogy only applies if we assume a final election, where one soft drink would be chosen, after wich point no other soft drink would be available. In that case, say you preferred Sprite, were not particularly fond of Pepsi, but you flat-out HATED Coke. In that case, you'd better have the Pepsi, like it or not. Otherwise, the point you are trying to make does not apply.
Case and point, 15 John:
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
So, no, we are not "saved" when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Instead, we have the opportunity to be saved. What we do with that opportunity is up to us. Faith without works is dead.
By that logic, there is no point in EVER voting, is there? I used to think like that. Then I found myself living in Palm Beach County in November 2000...
If you and I both vote for Romney, Obama needs *three* other votes to win.
If I vote for Romney, and you abstain (or vote for a third party), Obama needs only *two* other votes to win.
Like it or not, if you don't vote for Romney, you do indeed help Obama win.
Perhaps I shouldn’t have put this out for the Friday night crowd. Some of the responses seem incoherent.
It is looking more and more like Milt Rominy is the ONLY credible challenge to little barry bastard commie. In order to remove the thuggish puppet an alternate must be selected. Any vote not for that most credible opponent is exactly one less vote little barry bastard has to overcome to be re-elected (and to top it off, little barry will be depositing millions of illicit votes which the credible challenger must overcome with legitimately placed votes, which the category of 'other' will be sucking out of the counting to remove the soros klown)
It is looking more and more like Milt Rominy is the ONLY credible challenge to little barry bastard commie. In order to remove the thuggish puppet an alternate must be selected. Any vote not for that most credible opponent is exactly one less vote little barry bastard has to overcome to be reelected (and to top it off, little barry will be depositing millions of illicit votes which the credible challenger must overcome with legitimately placed votes, which the category of 'other' will be sucking out of the counting to remove the soros klown).
OK, this is pointless and tiresome. Daniel could loyally serve the unbelieving and even anti-believer kings of Babylon for decades, but a Christian cannot in good conscience choose the lesser of two evils between Romney and Obama. Paul could admonish Christians to “honor the king” when the king (emperor) was as pagan and anti-Christian as Romney, and probably more so, but a Christian cannot in good conscience choose between two men, one of whom openly identifies with the Constitution - imperfectly, to be sure! - and the other openly tries to subvert it.
Stay home. Don’t soil your pure hand in the voting booth.
Believe what you will about the valueless nature of your non-vote. The nation will no doubt benefit from the wisdom of your choice ... somehow ...
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