1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.I have taken this test, I have applied it to the Book of Mormon, and I got an answer.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Wait a minute you poor persecuted Mormon boy. Looks to me like you are baiting JR to zot you so you can bear testimony next week about these terrible apostates that have all lost their testimonies. Stop being such a lightweight for the cause. I used to like your approach but lately you are really getting that persecution complex in the way of reality.
Lighten up.
Tell us, DU, re: "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...
...Aren't you, too, just "another" Kolobian neighborhood spirit-kid like Jesus who's arrived in the flesh?
And your Mormon brothers and sisters, too?
And the rest of us as well?
Aren't we all simply Mormon spirits arriving in the flesh from the same pre-existent Mormon mom or moms there?
Is the only uniqueness of that "arrival" then, DU, that Jesus' mom remained a virgin and the rest of ours didn't? Anything else unique 'bout Jesus' spirit coming in the flesh than ours, per Mormonism?
ALL: You see this is exactly where you need to be careful re: the craftiness of Mormonism. For example, Mormons don't downplay Jesus' eternality...what they do is just upgrade the rest of us to His level from the get-go! (Just as they attempt to upgrade all true-believing Mormons to gods plural!)
Joseph Smith claimed in D&C 93:29,33 that all spirits & intelligences -- you, me & Jesus -- have always existed. It might sound "Christian" for the Mormon to say, "I believe Jesus is eternal." But unless you break that down, the "craft" being tossed atcha will getcha.
Mormons say in the Book of Abraham (a Mormon sacred book) that the Mormon god is near a star Kolob. So when a Mormon like DU says Jesus is come in the flesh, 'tis not exactly a unique "flight pattern" for spirits from that Kolobian neighborhood to make their way to planet Earth. Mormons say that's how all -- or almost all -- humans got here. Their spirits took flight from there into the wombs of humans.
The debate among Mormon leaders through the years on this subject is really whether this same spirit flight pattern applied to Jesus or not. DU insists that Jesus birth was indeed virgin-unique (post #340); Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie at times has insisted strongly that it was not...that Jesus is "literally" the Son of God in a unique way that doesn't apply to His supposed "spirit brothers" in Kolob Heights.
And what "unique" way was that: That a physical god of flesh and bones came down and had sex with Mary, resulting in Jesus' birth.
Note, this topic has in part been discussed on this thread...but I've only seen one quote from below placed in that discussion. The topic of whether Mormons think Jesus was born from a virgin is covered in in previous thread posts: Syncro (#94, #140,), SeeSac (#120, #132, #146), Graybeard58 (#123, #131), DU (#337, #338, #340, #341, #490, #542), Tennessee Nana (#366, #500), Szonian (#461), Ejonesie22 (#464), etc.
ALL: Check DU's comments from 337, 338, 340, 341, 490 vs. below:
LDS leaders trying to 'play it both ways' re: describing Mary as a virgin:
* Example: LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie.
* Some clearly implied that she wasn’t (Brigham Young)
Example of LDS saying Mary was a virgin: "Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false." (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 822. [A CARM writer’s comment to this was: Let them proclaim it. But quite honestly, I fail to see how the Mormon people can assert that Mary remained a virgin in light of this evidence from their prophets and apostles. I see them saying two different things and backpedaling trying to sound Christian.]
Let’s deal with each of those descriptions separately, shall we?
”Literal”:
”The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, Religious Truths Defined, p. 44)
“…Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (McConkie Mormon Doctrine, p. 742, 1966)
Did ya'll catch the conception part here being discussed as part of a “normal and natural course of events” process? Was McConkie just making that up out of thin air? No. He was simply repeating what earlier LDS “prophets” have said about this “natural process”:
...same physical sense that any other man begets a child...:
Brigham Young:
“God…created man [as spirit children], as we create our children: for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be.” Journal of Discourses (JoD), vol. 11, p. 122
(OK, Young's quote here = absolute statement that God only has one means of creation, and that the spirit, Jesus, was first “created” in heaven through the same process “as we create our children”).
“The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (JoD vol. 8, p. 115)
(Of course, if any poster wants to tell us that they were begotten of their fathers in some other manner that their fathers who ”partook of flesh and blood”--anything other than what Young called a “natural action”--we’ve got listening ears)
“When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it.” (JoD, vol. 4, p. 218, 1857)
What was Brigham meaning? “When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven.” (JoD vol. 1, p. 50, April 9, 1852)
What did Brigham mean by "who is the Father?...first of the human family?”
”Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation…Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 770, 1853)
What other LDS “prophets” embraced Brigham’s “natural process” of begottening?
“…As the horse, the ox, the sheep, and every living creature, including man, propogates its own species & perpetuates its own kind, so does God perpetuate His.” (Lds "prophet" John Taylor, Mediation & Atonement, 1882, p. 165 )
What about other LDS apostles? What did they say about this natural process?
"In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it." (LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211)
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547.)
Now I’ve cited McConkie twice, and a lot of folks have seen one or both of those quotes, but not nearly as many have seen this following McConkie excerpt…where McConkie makes sure we otherstand the literalness of what’s he talking about:
“We have spoke PLAINLY of our Lord’s conception in the womb of Mary. I am the son of my father and the father of my sons. They are my sons because they were begotten by me, were conceived by their mother, and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life, to dwell for a time and a season among other mortal men. And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father…And the Son is a Son is a Son…a literal, living offspring from an actual Father. God is the Father; Christ is the Son. The one begat the other. Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah came forth, tabernacled in clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births were brought to pass in like manner. There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord’s coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the SAME sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is that simple. Christ was born of Mary. He is the Son of God—the Only Begotten of the Father. (McConkie, The Promised Messiah, pp. 467-468, 1978)
In light of the above quotes, now do you see why DU is not a trustworthy source when it comes to representing what Lds leaders have said on a certain subject?
...tell us, DU, why John earlier said the following:
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s ONE and ONLY Son. (John 3:18)
Why is Jesus' deemed as the "ONE and ONLY" Son of God if Heavenly Father had all these other pre-existent spirit "sons," including Satan?
Don’t push me. Your zot will come soon enough I’m sure about that. You can’t help yourself from trolling and bad mouthing FR and our posters.
So?
So have MILLIONS of folks.
And THEY did NOT get the 'answer' that YOU did.
Ain't GOD capricious! ;^)
Let's BAN him!
His smug whining is REALLY getting pathetic!