Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

When Atheists Attack (Each Other)
Evolution News and Views ^ | April 28 2011 | Davld Klinghoffer

Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode

The squabble between Darwin lobbyists who openly hate religion and those who only quietly disdain it grows ever more personal, bitter and pathetic. On one side, evangelizing New or "Gnu" (ha ha) Atheists like Jerry Coyne and his acolytes at Why Evolution Is True. Dr. Coyne is a biologist who teaches and ostensibly researches at the University of Chicago but has a heck of a lot of free time on his hands for blogging and posting pictures of cute cats.

On the other side, so-called accommodationists like the crowd at the National Center for Science Education, who attack the New Atheists for the political offense of being rude to religious believers and supposedly messing up the alliance between religious and irreligious Darwinists.

I say "supposedly" because there's no evidence any substantial body of opinion is actually being changed on religion or evolution by anything the open haters or the quiet disdainers say. Everyone seems to seriously think they're either going to defeat religion, or merely "creationism," or both by blogging for an audience of fellow Darwinists.

Want to see what I mean? This is all pretty strictly a battle of stinkbugs in a bottle. Try to follow it without getting a headache.

Coyne recently drew excited applause from fellow biologist-atheist-blogger PZ Myers for Coyne's "open letter" (published on his blog) to the NCSE and its British equivalent, the British Centre for Science Education. In the letter, Coyne took umbrage at criticism of the New Atheists, mostly on blogs, emanating from the two accommodationist organizations. He vowed that,

We will continue to answer the misguided attacks [on the New Atheists] by people like Josh Rosenau, Roger Stanyard, and Nick Matzke so long as they keep mounting those attacks.
Like the NCSE, the BCSE seeks to pump up Darwin in the public mind without scaring religious people. This guy called Stanyard at the BCSE complains of losing a night's sleep over the nastiness of the rhetoric on Coyne's blog. Coyne in turn complained that Stanyard complained that a blog commenter complained that Nick Matzke, formerly of the NCSE, is like "vermin." Coyne also hit out at blogger Jason Rosenhouse for an "epic"-length blog post complaining of New Atheist "incivility." In the blog, Rosenhouse, who teaches math at James Madison University, wrote an update about how he had revised an insulting comment about the NCSE's Josh Rosenau that he, Rosenhouse, made in a previous version of the post.

That last bit briefly confused me. In occasionally skimming the writings of Jason Rosenhouse and Josh Rosenau in the past, I realized now I had been assuming they were the same person. They are not!

It goes on and on. In the course of his own blog post, Professor Coyne disavowed name-calling and berated Stanyard (remember him? The British guy) for "glomming onto" the Matzke-vermin insult like "white on rice, or Kwok on a Leica." What's a Kwok? Not a what but a who -- John Kwok, presumably a pseudonym, one of the most tirelessly obsessive commenters on Darwinist blog sites. Besides lashing at intelligent design, he often writes of his interest in photographic gear such as a camera by Leica. I have the impression that Kwok irritates even fellow Darwinists.

There's no need to keep all the names straight in your head. I certainly can't. I'm only taking your time, recounting just a small part of one confused exchange, to illustrate the culture of these Darwinists who write so impassionedly about religion, whether for abolishing it or befriending it. Writes Coyne in reply to Stanyard,

I'd suggest, then, that you lay off telling us what to do until you've read about our goals. The fact is that we'll always be fighting creationism until religion goes away, and when it does the fight will be over, as it is in Scandinavia.
A skeptic might suggest that turning America into Scandinavia, as far as religion goes, is an outsized goal, more like a delusion, for this group as they sit hunched over their computers shooting intemperate comments back and forth at each other all day. Or in poor Stanyard's case, all night.

There's a feverish, terrarium-like and oxygen-starved quality to this world of online Darwinists and atheists. It could only be sustained by the isolation of the Internet. They don't seem to realize that the public accepts Darwinism to the extent it does -- which is not much -- primarily because of what William James would call the sheer, simple "prestige" that the opinion grants. Arguments and evidence have little to do with it.

The prestige of Darwinism is not going to be affected by how the battle between Jerry Coyne and the NCSE turns out. New Atheist arguments are hobbled by the same isolation from what people think and feel. I have not yet read anything by any of these gentlemen or ladies, whether the open haters or the quiet disdainers, that conveys anything like a real comprehension of religious feeling or thought.

Even as they fight over the most effective way to relate to "religion," the open atheists and the accomodationists speak of an abstraction, a cartoon, that no actual religious person would recognize. No one is going to be persuaded if he doesn't already wish to be persuaded for other personal reasons. No faith is under threat from the likes of Jerry Coyne.




TOPICS: Education; Religion; Science
KEYWORDS: atheism; atheists; darwin; evolution; gagdadbob; onecosmosblog
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 2,601-2,6202,621-2,6402,641-2,660 ... 4,041-4,044 next last
To: BrandtMichaels
The Dome of the Rock is believed to be built upon the original site of the Temple Mount.

The foundation and possibly the Holy of Holies may be under the Dome of the Rock. What do you think the all the Hulla baloo regarding the Muslim's excavation is all about?

Obviously you try to be obtuse and when the other FR posters quit answering your inane drivel you thought the thread was cold.

Obtuse? Actually the Religion Moderator started deleting my posts and said that this was appropriate under the religiion forum, obviously that changed.

If I answer anymore of your postings it will most probably be another mistake I deeply regret.

Please don't run away. I am truly sorry if I am giving you too much cognitive dissonance, but it is for your own good. You will thank me sometime in the future.

2,621 posted on 06/10/2011 1:11:32 PM PDT by LeGrande ("life's tough; it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2610 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; xzins; P-Marlowe; Matchett-PI; metmom; James C. Bennett; kosta50; LeGrande; Godzilla; ..
A true atheist/agnostic would say that all this killing was a good thing, evolution at work — the clever, strong, industrious and skillful got rid of the weaker humans thus improving the gene pool. Indeed, he would say the genetically inferior should be killed in the womb or in infancy and if already matured then sterilized to prosper the gene pool. Eugenics or infanticide (e.g. Singer) follows from that worldview.

Where "man is the measure," this is the result we can expect — if history is any guide.

With God out of the picture — with truth and justice out of the picture — all that is left is the dynamic of power. The endgame is the "war of all against all," a lapse into the ideology of "the survival of the fittest."

Note: that's the "fittest"; not the "best." The laser-like focus on the physical eclipses all moral criteria.

Thus man ceases to be man, and finally becomes a "mere" animal....

And when man becomes an animal, he does not opt to be a dove. Rather he becomes a vicious beast, and the natural (and social) world becomes a spectacle of "Nature, red in tooth and claw," to quote Charles Darwin. Some folks evidently find this scenario appealing in some way. I do not for the life of me understand why.

Dearest sister in Christ, sometimes I wonder whether the human race has bifurcated into two camps: Those who are desperately trying to preserve their true (that is God-given) humanity in a chaotic world, and those who are trying to throw it away with both hands, thus further fanning the flames of chaos....

But the fact is the latter have reduced the universe to the size and competence of their mental operations. Surely, the world is "bigger" than that!

Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for your most eloquent essay/post!

2,622 posted on 06/10/2011 1:11:46 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through, the eye. — William Blake)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2572 | View Replies]

To: Cronos; kosta50; LeGrande
Thanks for the feedback, Cronos. Since you've mentioned cloning, I have a question. Have you heard of parasitic twins? These are birth anomalies wherein one person has parts of another person within him or her. Are such people individuals with two or more souls? What constitutes a soul separation for them? Would the parasite twin need to have a separate brain inside the body it is attached to, to be considered to have a separate soul? Or will any other body part do? I am asking this because these are real anomalies, that actually occur in nature:


2,623 posted on 06/10/2011 1:12:22 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2620 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
What? You've been able to create personal entities from impersonal sources experimentally?

That isn't what I said. Everything comes from waves of nothing, the Quantum foam. QM is well tested and verified. What is so hard to understand?

2,624 posted on 06/10/2011 1:16:32 PM PDT by LeGrande ("life's tough; it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2618 | View Replies]

To: LeGrande
You may find this interesting:

Vampire Bats and the Golden Rule

Michael Shermer writes in The Science of Good and Evil: Why people cheat, gossip, care, share, and follow the golden rule:

Examples of premoral sentiments among animals abound. It has been well documented that vampire bats, for example, exhibit food-sharing behavior and the principle of reciprocity. They go out at night in hordes seeking large sleeping mammals from which they can suck blood. Not all are successful, yet all need to eat regularly because of their excessively high metabolism. On average, older experienced bats fail one night in ten, younger inexperienced bats fail one night in three.

Their solution: successful individuals regurgitate blood and share it with their less fortunate comrades, fully expecting reciprocity the next time they come home sans bacon. Gerald Wilkinson, in his extensive study of cooperation in vampire bats, has even identified a “buddy system” among bats, in which two individuals share and reciprocate from night to night, depending on their successes or failures. He found that the degree of affiliation between two bats—that is, the number of times they were observed together—predicted how often they would share food.

Since bats live for upwards of eighteen years among the same community, they know who the cooperators are and who the defectors are. Of course, the bats are not aware of being cooperative in any conscious goodwill sense. All animals, including human animals, are just trying to survive, and it turns out that cooperation is a good strategy.

This account of food sharing among vampire bats was recently broadcast on my favorite podcast, WNYC’s Radiolab.

Wilkinson, who conducted this research, describes summer nights he spent on a cattle ranch in Costa Rica, lying down inside of hollow, four-story trees along a river, getting pooped on while observing the bats. Often one bat would snuggle up to another bat and begin licking at its mouth, almost like they were kissing, but really she was licking up blood that the second bat was regurgitating.

WATCH VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loXKlwAjwfc&feature=player_embedded

Wilkinson then controlled which bats ate and which didn’t, and kept track of who fed whom, and he found that there are friendship networks among bats. If hungry Sally feeds full Agnes on the first day, then hungry Agnes invariably feeds full Sally the second day. And this isn’t just among related bats; friendship ties are actually more predictive than kinship ties of who feeds whom.

Wilkinson also mentions that large mammals were abundant on the plains 40,000 years ago. But when the large mammals became scarce due to climate changes, vampire bats had to develop a way of working together. Being nice wasn’t an option; it was the only way for the species to survive.

Have a listen to the broadcast: It’s 14:45 minutes long.

The moral of the story? Be nice. I know being nice can’t be taught in a lesson; it’s modeled. But if I’m asked to teach a family home evening lesson, I might as well keep the boys interested with blood-sucking, -pooping, -vomiting bats.

But there’s a second unspoken lesson here—that the existence of altruism, compassion, generosity, kinship, and compassion can be explained very well by natural selection.

Dubious? Read the book. 

2,625 posted on 06/10/2011 1:17:27 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2588 | View Replies]

To: LeGrande; betty boop; kosta50; James C. Bennett
"Comparing our DNA proves it. Your DNA isn't any different than mine Matchett."

Who said it wasn't? Not me. If you read what I posted, you'd have already known.

However, Contrary to the claim that DNA is the secret of life, life remains the secret of DNA

2,626 posted on 06/10/2011 1:18:41 PM PDT by Matchett-PI (In the latter times the man [or woman] of virtue appears vile. --Tao Te Ching)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2609 | View Replies]

To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; xzins; P-Marlowe; Matchett-PI; metmom; James C. Bennett; kosta50; ...
With God out of the picture — with truth and justice out of the picture — all that is left is the dynamic of power. The endgame is the "war of all against all," a lapse into the ideology of "the survival of the fittest."

Betty will you please read the original and real "Ten Commandments" in Exodus 34 and correct your statement?

2,627 posted on 06/10/2011 1:22:35 PM PDT by LeGrande ("life's tough; it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2622 | View Replies]

To: LeGrande; Alamo-Girl; metmom; James C. Bennett; Matchett-PI; xzins; boatbums; 1000 silverlings; ...
You have to first get me to make a bonehead statement and then point it out. It doesn't work if I don't make a mistake.... Your turn. :)

This statement strikes me as so baseless that — in the words of Wolfgang Pauli (of Pauli Exclusion Principle fame) — it's "not even false."

You claim never to make a "'bone-headed statement," never a mistake? Where on earth do you get this confidence from, if you do not recognize a criterion of truth outside of yourself?

For that reason, I find all your statements "bone-headed!"

What now???

2,628 posted on 06/10/2011 1:24:44 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through, the eye. — William Blake)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2614 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett; Cronos; kosta50

Ooh, good question. And what if ‘one’ of the Siamese twins dies?


2,629 posted on 06/10/2011 1:25:09 PM PDT by LeGrande ("life's tough; it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2623 | View Replies]

To: LeGrande
What is God's relationship to the Jews, except for prophecy? And that is demonstrably false.

LOL, pretty lame lg - even by your own low standards. God's covenant with Israel - real time, same for God's covenant with Abraham and the new covenant through Christ - real time. Is there a prophetical component - yes, just as there is a historical, poetic and philosophical components to the bible. But the whole is God and his relationship to his creation.

Please, just name one specific, accurate, verifiable prophecy that Christ fulfilled?

There are 48 prophecies here:

http://therefinersfire.org/accurate_messiah_prophecies.htm

from there there are another 300+ linked.

2,630 posted on 06/10/2011 1:27:50 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2588 | View Replies]

To: LeGrande
A lot of the incidents involve one person with an arm or a limb of the other, attached.

Many haven't even formed a brain inside the host body. The parasite is comprised of living body parts, but is attached to the host. What extent of completion would cause the parasitic twin to have a "soul"? A separate brain? A separate heart?

2,631 posted on 06/10/2011 1:31:44 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2629 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; James C. Bennett
Oh that's rich, boatbums. How low can you sink?

Oh, dear, I fear you may have lost your sense of humor along with your faith. Please tell me you "got" the point of the question. James certainly did.

2,632 posted on 06/10/2011 1:36:15 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2523 | View Replies]

To: LeGrande; Alamo-Girl; metmom; James C. Bennett; Matchett-PI; xzins; boatbums; 1000 silverlings; ...
Betty will you please read the original and real "Ten Commandments" in Exodus 34 and correct your statement?

Having just reread Exodus 34, would you kindly clear up a mystery for me — What is your point? What are you trying to say?

In what way do I need to "correct my statement?" Indeed, which statement do you want me to correct?

I can't read your mind, LG. If you expect me to, we're not going to get very far.

2,633 posted on 06/10/2011 1:40:43 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through, the eye. — William Blake)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2627 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett; metmom; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
Wow, the hair-splitting. Go read how many times I've mentioned I'm looking for an exception to the rule. Even one tribal saved outside faith in your particular dogma would have sufficed. Common sense.

LOL, now trying the pot meet kettle argument? Again, I see you are backtracking from your original question - are you now asking on an individual basis now? Be specific james - for you are running out of frog hair to split. Quit running from the question you asked and answer the one put before you. God deals with salvation on an individual basis - should you care to frame your question within those constructs you will be closer to an answer - if it really is an answer you seek.

2,634 posted on 06/10/2011 1:40:54 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2605 | View Replies]

To: BrandtMichaels; James C. Bennett
And how exactly will you know if someone [anyone] is saved on this side of the ‘equation’?

If he is honest - he'll say there is no way to know.

2,635 posted on 06/10/2011 1:42:42 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2608 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

You see in error.


2,636 posted on 06/10/2011 1:42:42 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2634 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla; kosta50

Hey, I am not the one being a claimant to this “saving” business. There’s no way to know if pink unicorns exist on an asteroid floating around Alpha Centauri’s neighbourhood, either.


2,637 posted on 06/10/2011 1:45:20 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2635 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla; James C. Bennett; Alamo-Girl; xzins; metmom
God deals with salvation on an individual basis — should you care to frame your question within those constructs you will be closer to an answer — if it really is an answer you seek.

Well said, Godzilla!

My sense is JCB is into "telling," not into "seeking for answers." He already thinks he's got 'em all!

2,638 posted on 06/10/2011 1:46:23 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through, the eye. — William Blake)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2634 | View Replies]

To: Godzilla

Already asked:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2713145/posts?page=2613#2613


2,639 posted on 06/10/2011 1:48:18 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2634 | View Replies]

To: LeGrande
"Innocent ignorance" Now there is a misnomer if I ever heard one. Innocent ignorance is just another term for ignoramus, not unlike many of the so called "Christian" posters on this thread who will go nameless, as is fitting.


2,640 posted on 06/10/2011 1:52:30 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2534 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 2,601-2,6202,621-2,6402,641-2,660 ... 4,041-4,044 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson