Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
The squabble between Darwin lobbyists who openly hate religion and those who only quietly disdain it grows ever more personal, bitter and pathetic. On one side, evangelizing New or "Gnu" (ha ha) Atheists like Jerry Coyne and his acolytes at Why Evolution Is True. Dr. Coyne is a biologist who teaches and ostensibly researches at the University of Chicago but has a heck of a lot of free time on his hands for blogging and posting pictures of cute cats.
On the other side, so-called accommodationists like the crowd at the National Center for Science Education, who attack the New Atheists for the political offense of being rude to religious believers and supposedly messing up the alliance between religious and irreligious Darwinists.
I say "supposedly" because there's no evidence any substantial body of opinion is actually being changed on religion or evolution by anything the open haters or the quiet disdainers say. Everyone seems to seriously think they're either going to defeat religion, or merely "creationism," or both by blogging for an audience of fellow Darwinists.
Want to see what I mean? This is all pretty strictly a battle of stinkbugs in a bottle. Try to follow it without getting a headache.
Coyne recently drew excited applause from fellow biologist-atheist-blogger PZ Myers for Coyne's "open letter" (published on his blog) to the NCSE and its British equivalent, the British Centre for Science Education. In the letter, Coyne took umbrage at criticism of the New Atheists, mostly on blogs, emanating from the two accommodationist organizations. He vowed that,
We will continue to answer the misguided attacks [on the New Atheists] by people like Josh Rosenau, Roger Stanyard, and Nick Matzke so long as they keep mounting those attacks.Like the NCSE, the BCSE seeks to pump up Darwin in the public mind without scaring religious people. This guy called Stanyard at the BCSE complains of losing a night's sleep over the nastiness of the rhetoric on Coyne's blog. Coyne in turn complained that Stanyard complained that a blog commenter complained that Nick Matzke, formerly of the NCSE, is like "vermin." Coyne also hit out at blogger Jason Rosenhouse for an "epic"-length blog post complaining of New Atheist "incivility." In the blog, Rosenhouse, who teaches math at James Madison University, wrote an update about how he had revised an insulting comment about the NCSE's Josh Rosenau that he, Rosenhouse, made in a previous version of the post.
That last bit briefly confused me. In occasionally skimming the writings of Jason Rosenhouse and Josh Rosenau in the past, I realized now I had been assuming they were the same person. They are not!
It goes on and on. In the course of his own blog post, Professor Coyne disavowed name-calling and berated Stanyard (remember him? The British guy) for "glomming onto" the Matzke-vermin insult like "white on rice, or Kwok on a Leica." What's a Kwok? Not a what but a who -- John Kwok, presumably a pseudonym, one of the most tirelessly obsessive commenters on Darwinist blog sites. Besides lashing at intelligent design, he often writes of his interest in photographic gear such as a camera by Leica. I have the impression that Kwok irritates even fellow Darwinists.
There's no need to keep all the names straight in your head. I certainly can't. I'm only taking your time, recounting just a small part of one confused exchange, to illustrate the culture of these Darwinists who write so impassionedly about religion, whether for abolishing it or befriending it. Writes Coyne in reply to Stanyard,
I'd suggest, then, that you lay off telling us what to do until you've read about our goals. The fact is that we'll always be fighting creationism until religion goes away, and when it does the fight will be over, as it is in Scandinavia.A skeptic might suggest that turning America into Scandinavia, as far as religion goes, is an outsized goal, more like a delusion, for this group as they sit hunched over their computers shooting intemperate comments back and forth at each other all day. Or in poor Stanyard's case, all night.
There's a feverish, terrarium-like and oxygen-starved quality to this world of online Darwinists and atheists. It could only be sustained by the isolation of the Internet. They don't seem to realize that the public accepts Darwinism to the extent it does -- which is not much -- primarily because of what William James would call the sheer, simple "prestige" that the opinion grants. Arguments and evidence have little to do with it.
The prestige of Darwinism is not going to be affected by how the battle between Jerry Coyne and the NCSE turns out. New Atheist arguments are hobbled by the same isolation from what people think and feel. I have not yet read anything by any of these gentlemen or ladies, whether the open haters or the quiet disdainers, that conveys anything like a real comprehension of religious feeling or thought.
Even as they fight over the most effective way to relate to "religion," the open atheists and the accomodationists speak of an abstraction, a cartoon, that no actual religious person would recognize. No one is going to be persuaded if he doesn't already wish to be persuaded for other personal reasons. No faith is under threat from the likes of Jerry Coyne.
You are right. CS Lewis does a great job with addressing the common arguments of atheists, having been one himself. I daresay that no atheist would dare to read Mere Christianity, or The Screwtape Letters, or The Problem of Pain.
It is not our concern how God judges those who never heard. It IS our concern to spread the gospel.
And just as in the days of Paul, people are still mocking the resurrection.
Acts 17:22-34
22So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28for
“’In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your own poets have said,
“’For we are indeed his offspring.’
29 Being then Gods offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
32Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33So Paul went out from their midst. 34But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
Romans 2:12-16
12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Assumption.
Vampire Bats and the Golden Rule Michael Shermer writes in The Science of Good and Evil: Why people cheat, gossip, care, share, and follow the golden rule: Examples of premoral sentiments among animals abound. It has been well documented that vampire bats, for example, exhibit food-sharing behavior and the principle of reciprocity. They go out at night in hordes seeking large sleeping mammals from which they can suck blood. Not all are successful, yet all need to eat regularly because of their excessively high metabolism. On average, older experienced bats fail one night in ten, younger inexperienced bats fail one night in three. Their solution: successful individuals regurgitate blood and share it with their less fortunate comrades, fully expecting reciprocity the next time they come home sans bacon. Gerald Wilkinson, in his extensive study of cooperation in vampire bats, has even identified a “buddy system” among bats, in which two individuals share and reciprocate from night to night, depending on their successes or failures. He found that the degree of affiliation between two bats—that is, the number of times they were observed together—predicted how often they would share food. Since bats live for upwards of eighteen years among the same community, they know who the cooperators are and who the defectors are. Of course, the bats are not aware of being cooperative in any conscious goodwill sense. All animals, including human animals, are just trying to survive, and it turns out that cooperation is a good strategy. This account of food sharing among vampire bats was recently broadcast on my favorite podcast, WNYC’s Radiolab. Wilkinson, who conducted this research, describes summer nights he spent on a cattle ranch in Costa Rica, lying down inside of hollow, four-story trees along a river, getting pooped on while observing the bats. Often one bat would snuggle up to another bat and begin licking at its mouth, almost like they were kissing, but really she was licking up blood that the second bat was regurgitating. Wilkinson then controlled which bats ate and which didn’t, and kept track of who fed whom, and he found that there are friendship networks among bats. If hungry Sally feeds full Agnes on the first day, then hungry Agnes invariably feeds full Sally the second day. And this isn’t just among related bats; friendship ties are actually more predictive than kinship ties of who feeds whom. Wilkinson also mentions that large mammals were abundant on the plains 40,000 years ago. But when the large mammals became scarce due to climate changes, vampire bats had to develop a way of working together. Being nice wasn’t an option; it was the only way for the species to survive. Have a listen to the broadcast: It’s 14:45 minutes long. The moral of the story? Be nice. I know being nice can’t be taught in a lesson; it’s modeled. But if I’m asked to teach a family home evening lesson, I might as well keep the boys interested with blood-sucking, -pooping, -vomiting bats. But there’s a second unspoken lesson here—that the existence of altruism, compassion, generosity, kinship, and compassion can be explained very well by natural selection. Dubious? Read the book.
WATCH VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loXKlwAjwfc&feature=player_embedded
chose=choose
Assumption.
And your view, whatever it is, is also an assumption.
Are you implying yours is more valid than his?
Take yor pick, I’ll be gentle with you.
His assumptions don’t allow me to test them.
“They are true because the deity said so. The deity said so because the deity speaks the truth.”
That refusal to allow the testing is why you too hesitate to give a straightforward answer to what has been repeatedly asked, regarding salvation of the tribals, and instead, choose to predictably side-track, once again.
The other FR posters I am somewhat familiar with and understand them to be fellow believers therefore it would be like preaching to the choir.
The point of my prior post was that both of your arguments are not w/ the Christians posting here rather simply dis-prove the Word [the foundation of this faith] and then...
Well if it were that easy then you could gain a large following like Mohammed and start the kostian or bennettian religion. Course all religion is man-made and you still would not have dis-proven the Bible - not one iota.
In other words there is evidence [mountains upon mountains of evidence] in support of the Bible and you can not successfully [nor can any being nor predicament] separate the true saints from their Father in Heaven.
BTW, James, the Golden Rule does not prove the logical necessity of human rights.
It is not an assumption that I believe in the Christian Triune God. My God has affirmed human rights.
I cannot prove the logical necessity of human rights. They can only be ordered by Divine decree. Therefore, I believe in them.
You believe in life (I’m assuming you do from other posts you’ve made) just because you do, and you have no real basis for arguing with anyone who doesn’t. If they kill you first, then they win.
If the emperor takes my life in the Coliseum, then the emperor is accountable to God Almighty in my view. In your view, he won you lost.
I understand that that is your belief.
"Their ignorance of God's plan for salvation through the death of Christ on the cross is not an impediment to their personal salvation. Indeed, it cannot be."
If it is not an impediment to their salvation, I assume you imply that they CAN be saved without having heard the Gospel (and hence, not being able to profess faith in Jesus), due to their ignorance of the Gospel. So, their salvation is guaranteed outside of faith in Jesus Christ. Isn't this violating some "absolute" rule?
The God of your choice tolerates slavery and predestines people to hell. I don't think you have a case.
Read what I wrote to you earlier. You didn’t answer them at all. I asked you if you saw arrogance in anyone else besides Kosta and myself.
M: Then why do you try to make it?
To try to belittle those who don't buy into their stories.
metmom: You show an abysmal ignorance of what it means to be a Christian
Calvinists are not Christians?
Short-sighted thinking. I posted a small article a comment or two ago. Read it.
Tolerating someone violating the Golden Rule destroys the fabric of society that the said person too relies on, thus unravelling it. Since every individual is driven by natural selection to look out for his or her progeny, destroying this society, in the long run, doesn't bode well for that individual and his or her progeny, over time. To that end, it makes it imperative for successful societies to not encourage entities that destroy altruistic behaviour.
Careful, you may exceed her voltage. :)
Geez, the man asks you for a "yes" or "no" answer and you just don't seem to be able to say either!
Ironic, isn't it? Especially in the face of claiming to have "absolute" answers!
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