Officer who berated driver loses job in St. George

STLtoday.com ^ | 09/21/2007 | Kim Bell and Greg Jonsson

[beltfed308]

ST. GEORGE — A police officer who was recorded berating a motorist earlier this month has lost his job.

The board of aldermen voted 5-0, with one member absent, to fire Sgt. James Kuehnlein on Monday. The vote was cast in a session closed to the public and wasn't announced until Wednesday, when a notice was posted at the City Hall of this tiny south St. Louis County community.

In a video that got wide viewership on the Internet, Kuehnlein taunts and threatens motorist Brett Darrow, 20, sometimes shouting and using profanity, after questioning him in a commuter lot near Interstate 55. Darrow posted the footage of the Sept. 7 incident on the web.

[tpaine]

if my brother commits a crime, he is still my brother and i'll support HIM through his ordeal, while NOT supporting his behavior.
who in their right mind would support illegal acts, -- ?

Yep, that's become the question. -- The mind set that supports behavior, "-- right or wrong --".

We've established that the St. George cops behavior was illegal. -- You consider him a brother, and support him through an 'ordeal' he brought upon himself.

Why?

[rednesss]

" We've established that the St. George cops behavior was illegal. -- You consider him a brother, and support him through an 'ordeal' he brought upon himself.

Why?"

Oooh, oooh, pick me, pick me!!!! Let's see, the standard response to that is: "Because they have a hard job!" That excuses all kinds of anti-social psychotic behavior that would be instantly condemned by most people if a mere "citizen" displayed them. You know what my Mom always said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." But you'll notice that not too many lay down the badge and gun, and go sell insurance. It's not that power corrupts, it's that power attracts the corruptible.

[robertpaulsen]

"But it's OK to threaten to?"

What is this -- tag team 20 questions? The kid wasn't charged with offenses he did not commit. He wasn't even arrested, for crying out loud. Your buddy was wrong. Now what? Another variation? Then another?

What do you mean, OK? Do you mean legal? Yeah, it's legal. Now what?

But ... but ... robertpaulsen, it's not ethical. It's not faaaaaair.

[SubGeniusX]

I have read Post #8 ...

I may very well be simple...

but could you please point out to me where the “kid” started or was a smartass?

Honestly I can’t see it...

in order to preempt a response of “if you can’t see how the kid was smarting off then I can’t help you...”...

I honestly can’t, please give a point or statement, that the kid made, that you construe as being smart ass...

thanks

[DuncanWaring]

Not my buddy. I'd never heard of either of these guys or "St. George, MO" a week ago.

Don't ask me what I mean by "OK" ... you're the first to use it.

When you take an utterly irrational position you should expect "tag team 20 questions".

[SubGeniusX]

Hypothetical:

If you pulled over a car that was weaving and found it to be driven by an fellow police officer (from an adjoining municipality), what would you do?
additional - from your own department?

If you came across evidence another officer in your department was was “shaking down” local drug dealers, what would you do?

If you were asked or questioned by IAD regarding another officers conduct during an arrest which you witnessed the officer, go a little to far as far as using force goes... would you... tell the events as you saw them? ... state the the use of force was justified? ... say that you did not see the event so therefore you could not say....

Basically what I’m asking at what point would you cross the ‘thin blue line’?

[tpaine]

Red:
"It's not that power corrupts, it's that power attracts the corruptible."

Great line. -- As compared to:

"-- right or wrong, cops stick together --"

I was taught over 50 years ago in basic training that the concept:

'-- right or wrong, comrades at arms stick together --"

Was no longer valid in the US Army; -- that it was a variation of the "Nuremberg Defense" and would not be tolerated. -- Illegal acts, or illegal orders, were not to be sanctioned or obeyed.

I'd bet the same concept is still being taught at police academies.

[rednesss]

Some go along to get along. It takes a special kind of courage to stand up to your peers and “crap in the punch bowl”.

[tpaine]

Some go along to get along. It takes a special kind of courage to stand up to your peers and 'crap in the punch bowl'.

Far to many spineless types go along to get along.
It takes a special kind of courage to stand up to your peers and 'crap on their power trip'.

[KurtZ]

"He wasn't even arrested, for crying out loud."

Most likely because he told the cop he was recording the whole thing.

But ... but ... robertpaulsen, it's not ethical. It's not faaaaaair.

You're the one crying about how it was unfair for this cop to be "set up".

[Dustoff45]

I think the firing is appropriate.

I agree the firing was justified - The main reason is the missing video from the cruiser. The officer as much as admitted that he also was taping the event. Most of the worst conversation happened outside the car. Possibly the Sgt. thought if he got rid of the tape, he had a chance.

Most depts. require the tape to be turned in at the end of the shift. It allows for an independent review of an officer's conduct and treatment of citizens as well as recording evidence.

Officers don't have an option, not to turn in the tape. It would be like not properly recording evidence and keeping it instead of turning it in to the evidence room.

The Chief has a defendable position on the tape alone.

Also, good training methods today have taught officers how to take a smart-mouth and verbally judo him with soft responses. The smart-mouth can actually talk themselves into admitting an offense. The Sgt. strongarm tactics are old-school.

[rednesss]

Oh I almost forgot, I can’t take credit for the “power attracts the corruptible” line, it’s actually from the Dune series of books and should be accredited to Frank Herbert, the full quote is: “Power attracts the corruptible, absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible.”

[thefactor]

no no. i don’t know this guy from a hole in the ground. however, if an officer with whom i worked found himself in this situation i’d be sympathetic as far as i thought he was an overall decent guy. there are guys i work with who i would bid a fond farewell to because they have no business being cops. but i’d still race to their PHYSICAL defense if they found themselves in a hairy situation and needed help to avoid physical harm.

[rednesss]

Steve: Being called a ****sucker isn't personal?
Dalton: No. It's two nouns combined to elicit a prescribed response.
Steve: What if somebody calls my mama a whore?
Dalton: Is she?

[robertpaulsen]

Officer #1: How we doin? What’s going on?
Brett: Nothing.

Nothing?? Well, it's 2am. The lot is deserted. The kid pulls in and parks. SOMETHING is going on. Yes? No?

Or is the punk really saying, "It's none of your damn busines WHAT I'm doing in a public parking lot"?

(He later admits he was waiting for a friend. AHA! So, something WAS going on. He lied. Why? To pi$$ off the cop. Why didn't he answer that right away?)

Officer #1: Why you parkin here?
Brett: Can’t I park here? It’s a commuter lot right?

Oh, boy. ANSWER THE QUESTION, JAGOFF. What is he hiding? What's going on here? What's with the attitude?

" ..... You got any ID on you?
Brett: Yeah, I do.
Officer #1: Can I see it please?
Brett: Did I do something wrong?

That's it! Yep you did. I asked you two questions and you answered neither of them. I asked you for ID and you're not giving it to me. At this point, I'M bitch-slapping the kid as I'm pulling him from the car -- which is why I'm not a cop.

The kid was uncooperative, evasive, combative, a smart ass, and a jerk, wasting the time of a cop who -- up to this point -- has been polite.

Now you may say he wasn't required to give the cop this or that. Fine. Then why did he eventually tell the cop why he was there and why did he eventually show his ID?

[thefactor]

well, the car is weaving. why? is he hammered drunk? if he had hit another car or person while drunk, there's nothing to discuss. he made his bed. if i pulled him over and found him to be drunk but no accident occured, i'd use my discretion just like pulling over a non-cop. maybe park the car, take the keys and tell him to get home and pick up the keys tomorrow.

evidence of shaking down drug-dealers? we are "strongly encouraged," not required to report that. most likely that would be taken care of in-house, but also perhaps reported to the immediate supervisor. but that is an extreme example, imho.

use of force, it depends if it was excessive by dept guidelines. i would recount the scene the way i saw it. i would not give opinion as to excessiveness. they don't pay me to make that determination.

do officers cover for eachother? sure. would it change the outcome of scenarios? usually not. usually it is used as a time-saving measure. i won't elaborate due to time constraints. but i'm not talking about illegal activities. purely administrative.

[tpaine]

I forgot to ping you to:

"-- right or wrong, cops stick together --"

I was taught over 50 years ago in basic training that the concept:

'-- right or wrong, comrades at arms stick together --"

Was no longer valid in the US Army; -- that it was a variation of the "Nuremberg Defense" and would not be tolerated. -- Illegal acts, or illegal orders, were not to be sanctioned or obeyed.

I'd bet the same concept is still being taught at police academies.

Were you taught that concept factor?

[ozzymandus]

So your secret (not any more) fantasy is “bitch-slapping” kids. That wasn’t too hard to guess. Luckily, most PDs have screening to weed out psychos like you. You couldn’t be a cop if you tried. You’d be fired, sued, or worse, in a week.

[tacticalogic]

I’m finding it really odd that the kid installed this camera and started the recording to set up the cop, and then told him he was being recorded. What kind of lame set up is that?

[tpaine]

[Psycho wannabee cops will be] fired, sued, or worse, in a week.

That was exactly the way it was back in my home town shortly after WWII.

Most wannabees only survived a week or two before they got their clocks cleaned in barfights by the local vets.

One guy lasted a year or so, because his power trip was picking on teens at lovers lanes.

A load of #6 shot ended his 'career' late one night.