[RussP]

I have posted this article before, but that was a long time ago, and I just revised it a bit, so I decided to post it again.

In the spirit of free and open inquiry, I challenge evolutionists to read the article and actually think rather than simply regurgitating the standard evolutionist talking points and ad hominem insults.

And please do not add bogus keywords. That will only demonstrate your inability to debate rationally.

[cornelis]

First figure out how you determine what science is.

[AntiGuv]

No. Next!

[Coyoteman]

===> Placemarker <===

[Al Simmons]

*CREVO FLYING BRICK-BAT PING LIST*

Note: You have been pinged because I noticed you engaging in a spirited discussion on a previous CREVO thread. This is a low-volume, bi-partisan, ping list designed to bring the occasional interesting article on this topic to your attention. If you would like to be removed from this ping list, please drop me a FReepmail.

[RadioAstronomer]

TOE does not depend on abiogenesis.

[Jaguarbhzrd]

That's nice, but has nothing to do with evolution.

Evolution doesn't care how the first cell came into being, it could have been random chance, it could have been the flying spaghetti monster, it could have been a UFO that came down and planted it.

It really doesn't matter to evolution, there was a first cell that was an imperfect replicator, and evolution took it from there.

TO say that the first cell popping up by itself makes evolution impossible is a strawman argument, and does nothing to the theory of evolution.

[tomzz]

Mathematicians and physicists have argued (and claim to have proved) that the simplest conceivable living cell is far too complex to have come together by random chance, but evolutionists always reply that, given enough time and space, "anything" can happen.

Like buying an item for two dollars and selling it for two dollars, and hoping to make money on volume....

[spatso]

Benedict is very clear. In his recent speech he covered many areas, only one got much attention. But, in addition to his comments on Islam Benedict appears to clearly reject the foundations of Intelligent Design. He said,

"Only the kind of certainty resulting from the interplay of mathematical and empirical elements can be considered scientific...A second point, which is important for our reflections, is that by its very nature this method excludes the question of God."

[FairWitness]

Coming at it from the other direction, specific hypotheses put forward in the name of intelligent design (e.g., flagella are too complicated to have evolved by darwinian processes) are falsifiable if it can be shown that darwinian processes are capable of producing flagella. Saying that is too much work or will take too long is avoiding the issue. If the hypothesis is not falsifiable, then perhaps the production of flagella by evolution is an article of faith.

[Jaguarbhzrd]

BTW, there is no such thing as an evolutionist, either you understand the theory, or you don't. In science there is no belief. There is scientific evidence, that backs up the theory, that is falsifiable and repeatable.

To say that evolutionists always say "anything can happen" is nonsense, and to continue to claim that without abiogenesis, evolution is impossible, does not make it the truth.

Without physics, is there no astronomy? Without archeology, is there not microbiology?

they are 2 separate theories, they are related in a cosmological sense, but as far as whether the theories depend on each other to be true, is complete nonsense, and again, a strawman argument.

create strawman, tear the strawman down, and say up front, don't you dare attack my strawman as being a strawman.

Sorry, burn strawman, burn!

[Dimensio]

If Intelligent Design is categorically rejected, then that first cell must have come together more or less by random chance.

Strawman. "Intelligent Design" is not "categorically rejected". Moreover, "Intelligent Design" does not specify the origin of the first cell. Finally, the theory of evolution is independent of the means by which the first life form(s) came to exist. Your argument employs three false premises, thus it cannot be trusted as valid.

[VadeRetro]

If ID has made a few predictions along the lines of "Evolution has no scenario by which [fill-in-the-blank] may be produced," such is falsified whenever such an evolutionary scenario is discussed. One such falsification seems to have occurred in 1939, well before Behe published.

Review: "Darwin's Black Box, The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution" by Michael J. Behe.

For one, Behe thought he had invented Irreducibly Complexity. On pages 203-204, he wonders if some unknown mechanism could generate I.C.-ness. He dismisses the possibility. On page 233 he compares his great discovery to those of Newton, Einstein, Pasteur and Darwin. He should instead have compared himself to Nobel Prize winner H. J. Muller [3], who invented irreducible complexity in 1939. Muller argued in some detail that evolution would routinely cause such systems. That conclusion is today a common wisdom of evolutionary biology. Behe didn't rebut Muller's argument because he didn't even know it existed. He says on page 187 that evolution always progresses by addition, but any evolutionist knows that it often happens by subtraction.

The thing in question here is the very feature of irreducible complexity itself, a real cornerstone of ID.

[RussP]

I'll be out of this for a while, folks. I'm going to pump some iron so I can look a bit more like a gorilla (with a bit less hair, I hope)!

[freedumb2003]

Mathematicians and physicists have argued (and claim to have proved) that the simplest conceivable living cell is far too complex to have come together by random chance, but evolutionists always reply that, given enough time and space, "anything" can happen.

When your argument is based on an unsupported assertion, your argument becomes an unsupported assertion.

...

I challenge evolutionists to read the article and actually think rather than simply regurgitating the standard evolutionist talking points and ad hominem insults.

Where did this "think" talking point come from? It is a new buillt-in ad hominem that comes out of the CR/IDer community. To "think" is NOT to get drunk and repeat sophomoric drivel in the guise of "advanced thought." To "think" (at least for our purposes) is to take supported facts and analyzes and extend them by logic, data and further analysis. Adding in false "facts" (most scientists say...) or "analysis" (it MUST be so), isn't "thinking" it is "BSing."

As I have pointed out, what group of people prize "thinking" over "logic?"

[mugs99]

This article is a straw man. Intelligent Design is nothing more than an attempt to get religion into the schools and that is easily proved.

"I cannot anyhow be contented to view this wonderful universe, and especially the nature of man, and to conclude that everything is the result of brute force. I am inclined to look at everything as resulting from designed laws, with the details, whether good or bad, left to the working out of what we may call chance."...Charles Darwin

The supporters of Intelligent Design attack "Darwinism" yet "Darwinism" is Intelligent Design. They're forced into this ridiculous position by their need to compete with evolution to achieve their goal.
.

[balrog666]

Wow! You've demonstrated that you haven't learned a single thing since the last time you posted this ignorance-inspired drivel - welcome to Trollville, RussP.

[AtomicBuffaloWings]

Do you consider astrology to be science?
Micheal Behe has said that his definition of THEORY is so broad that ID as well as astrology are acceptable scientific theories.

I don't know any conservatives that read the daily horoscopes but I know quite a few liberals that do.

[DoctorMichael]

Is Intelligent Design Theory Scientific?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[bmwcyle]

As both sides worry about the past, the present is passing you by.

[My2Cents]

The ultimate irony here is that, given Popper's definition of science, the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution itself is based on an "unscientific" foundation.

Bears repeating. "Evolutionary science" is an oxymoron, and those who arrogantly insist that Darwinism is scientific are frauds.