Posted on 09/11/2006 2:38:16 PM PDT by witchypooy
FAIRTAX CALCULATOR
www.fairtaxcalculator.org
Do you have questions on what FairTax will cost your family? Have doubts about it's progressiveness? Worried it will place an unfair burden on the poor, the middle class, the young or the seniors?
Time to put the hype aside and stop listening to all the spin. Why not just find out exactly what FairTax will mean to your own personal bottom line? It's easy. Just go to the FairTax Calculator, input your gross income. Approximate your 8 "fair tax deductions" which represent your yearly tax free spending. Give your family size to determine your "monthly prebate". In 10 easy lines the fairtax calculator will calculate for you just what you would pay annually in FairTax considering your spending habits and number of dependents. The calculator will show your net effect annual FairTax percentage rate, the dollar amount of fairtax you would pay on your income, and the amount of your family's monthly fairtax prebate under HR 25.
No one will pay 23% net effective annual rate because of the prebate factor. Actually, many will pay well under 15%, while MOST will see a reduction in taxes over what they pay today for income tax plus 7.65% social security taxes. More importantly, by personally controlling one's own spending/savings habits, ALL will have more control over the amount of sales tax they pay, effecting what their own bottom line FairTax rate will be. ALL will see the IRS out of their personal life, and freedom and privacy restored!
Exact figures are not needed. Approximations will give you a very good picture of the Fair "sales" Tax system's effect on your personal tax burden. Then, just take these FairTax figures and compare them to your current income tax bill to the IRS, using your pay stubs showing current withholding, or last year's Income tax figures (income tax + Social Security FICA withholding). Then if you like, you can also figure a FLAT 24.65% on your annual income to determine what you would pay in tax under any of the current Flat Tax Proposals (17% income tax + 7.65% FICA social security). Isn't FairTax less complicated than the current IRS income tax? Wouldn't FairTax be less costly to you than any proposed "Flat Tax"?
Young, old, retired, unemployed, self employed, student. No matter who you are or what situation you are in, there is a good chance that your bottom line under FairTax will be smaller. How? By broadening the tax base and taxing ALL those spending money in the U.S., including legal and non legal residents, the underground economy, those earning a living through criminal activities, those currently evading taxes, those using loopholes to avoid taxes, those tourists using our services. When all pay, the burden for each of us is lowered. That's the "fair" in FairTax.
Put your doubts aside. Take the time to check out the FairTax Calculator. It's easy, it's fast, and it's totally anonymous! All hype aside, the numbers show the true story so you be the judge.
Check it out!
Marlene
fairtaxsupportpa@aol.com
Pittsburgh
Indeed it was ... see #59 also.
If there is $25,000 spendable income, spending it would result is a cash register paid sales tax PRICE paid of $25.000 including $5,750 in FairTax.So they have $19,250 worth of stuff and have paid $5,750 in FairTax. You need to show how they can buy $5,750 more worth of stuff to get to the poverty level of goods and services.
With a prebate of $6,072 the taxpayer is $322 better off overall.Huh? He still hasn't been able to buy the poverty level worth of goods and services (he's $5,750 short) and he's better off? And the prebate would be $5,750, not $6,072.
He'd have the $25,000 worth of stuff plus $322 in his pocket.No he wouldn't, he'd have $19,250 worth of stuff and $5,750 cash in his pocket. So show me how he can get to $25,000 worth of stuff.
In fact the taxpayer will be even better off since we didn't even factor in the effect of the decreased prices to start with which, I'm sure you recall, we agreed was a 9% price decrease when the income tax was removed. This would allow the taxpayer to buy a good bit MORE THAN what would have been $25,000 worth of "stuff" under the income tax - and which the taxpayer there would have to have earned about $26,500 to buy under that tax.That is all irrelevant. We aren't making a comparison. We are trying to see how, under the FairTax, a family at the poverty level can buy the poverty level worth of goods and services. Something you have failed to show.
In other words compared to the income tax situation, the taxpayer has increased purchasing power and is much better off - and that's where the rubber meets the road.
It's not conditioned upon taxes paid or not paidThen it's not a refund. End of story.
Indeed it was ... see #59 also.Indeed it wasn't.
The prebate is a refund of taxes. It is not conditioned upon the taxes paid (or not),So it's an entitlement because it refunds taxes, someone elses taxes to the "or not" group...which makes one wonder why you bothered parenthetically saying that when both you and your lover principled twisted yourselves into pretzels claiming the "or not" group doesn't exist.
a 59th backer in the houseWOW! There must be an election coming up and he needs a dangling carrot. It's like a steamroller, it's only taken what, 8 years to get there....The Fairtax uses a steamroller while the rest of us use turbo diesel and gas.
Enjoying your time here at the back of the Natalee Holloway wing?
The prebate for the M2K family would be $6,072 as stated, not $5,750, and that would allow the purchase of $26,400 worth of things with $6.072 being FairTax. It is the expenditure that is meaningful since the tax is included as part of the purchase price just as it is under the income tax.
Stating that the prebate is represented as allowing purchases of goods up to the poverty level ($26,400 in this case) of untaxed things is not what is represented. What is said is that the FairTax untaxes the taxpayer for purchases up to that point ... and it does since there are $6,072 in FairTaxes paid for by the prebate making all that was purchased ($26,400) free of tax. You're merely either not understanding what was said or wishing to misconstrue it. The actual statement in the FairTax website is "... a monthly rebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services ...". That's quite different than the posture you take.
You may believe that having to earn $26,500 under the income tax to buy $25,000 worth of things is "irrelevant" but I doubt many taxpayers would see it that way since that's money out of their pocket and it makes what they buy cost even more than it otherwise would. In addition, the thing they're buying for the $25,000 ($26,500 earnings) is really worth even less since there is an additional 9% hidden tax involved making the value of their "$25,000" stuff really worth a bit over $21,000 - and remember they had to earn $26,500 to buy it.
"We are trying to see how, under the FairTax, a family at the poverty level can buy the poverty level worth of goods and services. Something you have failed to show."
Not so. You're trying to say that it was claimed that the FairTax offered the purchase of things (excluding the tax) up to the poverty level and that was never said (except by you - a misstatement of the actual case). The example I gave shows that the taxpayer under the FairTax is untaxed up to the poverty level amount (which includes the tax as that is the way items are priced on the receipt). And that's exactly what was stated by FairTax supporters.
Much lower than what? Money left over from what?
How much do you think rents will drop under the FairTax? I don't think they will drop at all unless the FairTax transition period results in a recession as consumers and thus, the economy adjust to the new scheme.
"`Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be ..."
Since most people view a year as the tax period this means there will be a good bit of rebating - refunding - reimbursing - repaying - reconstituting - compensation - restitution - returned money - or whatever clever phrase you like to use. It's all the same ... you get the taxes you pay reduced.
You're certainly welcome to think as you like, but I think I'll more nearly believe the economists who've studied the FairTax and believe otherwise.
You mean the hired guns for the FairTax organization.
If you want to claim credibility, then you must disclose up front that the studies by the economists you refer too were bought and paid for by the FairTax organization. Other economists have come up with quite different results.
It should also be disclosed that the language and arguments used by the FairTaxers has been focus group tested by marketing specialists for optimal results.
In other words, you're not interested in the truth, just how most people might view something as long as their view supports your argument.
Under the FairTax, prices are tax inclusiveNo they aren't.
and are listed that way on the receipt.And they are listed exclusive of tax.
You can hardly pretend that the untaxed price is what should be purchased since that is not true under the income tax either and the effective tax rate is both higher there AND the effect of hidden tax costs raises the price artificially too). It is the complete price paid for the purchases including taxes that is meaningful.For our discussion, being able to buy goods and services equal to the poverty level is what's meaningful.
The prebate for the M2K family would be $6,072 as stated, not $5,750, and that would allow the purchase of $26,400 worth of things with $6.072 being FairTax.You are correct. I was basing my number on Witchypooy's statement and she's obviously clueless. Regardless, it doesn't change the point. Under the FairTax, a family at the poverty level can't buy the poverty level worth of goods and services taxfree.
What is said is that the FairTax untaxes the taxpayer for purchases up to that point ... and it does since there are $6,072 in FairTaxes paid for by the prebate making all that was purchased ($26,400) free of tax.And that is another one of the FairTaxer's word games. They say things like it "allows each household tax-free spending up to the poverty level" when most people wouldn't expect that spending to include sales taxes. The reality is the FairTax untaxes poverty level spending including FairTax but there is no requirement in the bill that the poverty level includes the FairTax! So, if you analyze the bill as it is written and don't try and change to wording of the bill (sound familiar?), a family can't buy goods and services up to poverty level without paying tax.
Not so. You're trying to say that it was claimed that the FairTax offered the purchase of things (excluding the tax) up to the poverty level and that was never said (except by you - a misstatement of the actual case).Really? This AFT document states "The rebate ensures each family unit can consume tax free up to the poverty level." That's not possible under the FairTax as written (I don't consume taxes. Do you?). And how many times have we heard someone claim the FairTax "exempts consumption of necessities"? Are taxes now a necessity?
You're certainly welcome to think as you like, but I think I'll more nearly believe the economists who've studied the FairTax and believe otherwise.How many economists who have studied the FairTax have claimed there would be a price drop? List their names.
"It should also be disclosed that the language and arguments used by the FairTaxers has been focus group tested by marketing specialists for optimal results. "
You can believe as you wish on that also but I don't think that's true. It also makes them no less correct - and that seems to be the part that rankles opponents.
So presumably you believe that it's just fine that FairTax opponents working through the Presidents Tax Panel misrepresent what the FairTax bill actually says and thereby defines their own version to review and criticize - all paid for with many millions of tax money ... and that's "unbiased" and "disclosed up front" that this was done - when in fact it's carefully hidden in their report.
The economic studies and the fact they were paid for has been disclosed by AFFT - several times if fact. Are you of the belief that economists do or should work for free or that being paid for their work make is less correct, somehow? If so then the tax funds shouldn't have been laid out for the Tax Panel and Brookings/Treasury staffers either.
"... In other words, you're not interested in the truth ..."
Do you believe that there is some other conventional tax period that most people use as a measure of taxes??? The government certainly uses a year time period and most of the tax preparers I know do also as well as all the taxpayers I know.
If you have some alternate "truth", please present it.
"... Under the FairTax, prices are tax inclusive and are listed that way on the receipt ..."
yn:"... No they aren't ... And they are listed exclusive of tax ..."
You know very well that the receipt required shows the price of the thing itself, the amount of tax charged and the total of those two things. In other words, it shows the tax inclusive price ... and that is the purchase price paid at the cash register meaning that the purchase price is tax inclusive.
"For our discussion, being able to buy goods and services equal to the poverty level is what's meaningful."
That's your misstatement of what was said by AFFT since what was actually said (FAQ #3) which, in speaking about the taxpayer, says he will:
"... receive a monthly rebate equivalent to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, also known as the poverty level expenditures ..."
That's quite different from your claim of:
"... a family at the poverty level can't buy the poverty level worth of goods and services taxfree ..."
... which is your misinterpretation of what was stated. The quote you've selected from another AFFT document, you'll note, says:
""... The rebate ensures each family unit can consume tax free up to the poverty level ..." "
... exactly what was stated in FAQ#3 (just above) referring to the tax paid on essential goods and services as "the poverty level".
The FAQ is consistent with the use of the prebate in the examples also; your misstatement is not.
Do you wish to weigh them and see who's heavier, perhaps???
You are quick to attribute distorting motives to studies that contradict the results of the FairTax studies while either not mentioning that the studies quoted by the FairTaxers are the groups own bought and paid for studies or glossing over the fact that the FairTax organization, itself, is a special interest group. Nor do you mention that the organizers just happen to be part of a group that would benefit most by the passage of the bill.
Why doesn't the FairTax organization publish the studies so we can see for ourselves exactly what the studies say and what assumptions were made?
Are you of the belief that economists do or should work for free or that being paid for their work make is less correct, somehow?
That's just silly.
The prebate, as has already been pointed out to you, is for taxes that may or may not be paid in the future. If, as you claim, we are free to not spend money on taxable items, then the prebate is not a rebate given in advance, but a taxpayer funded, government handout. That's the truth!
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