Posted on 07/24/2003 1:55:39 PM PDT by Mr.Atos
I was just lisening to Medved debating Creationism with Athiests on the air. I found it interesting that while Medved argued his side quite effectively from the standpoint of faith, his opponents resorted to condescension and beliitled him with statements like, "when it rains, is that God crying?" I was reminded of the best (at least most amusing)debate that I have ever heard on the subject of Creationism vs Evolution, albeit a fictional setting. It occurred on the show, Friends of all places between the characters Pheobe (The Hippy) and Ross (The Paleontologist). It went like this...
Pheebs: Okay...it's very faint, but I can still sense him in the building...GO INTO THE LIGHT MR. HECKLES!!
Ross: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What, uh, you don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: Nah. Not really. Ross: You don't believe in evolution? Pheebs: I don't know. It's just, ya know, monkeys, Darwin, ya know, it's a, it's a nice story. I just think it's a little too easy.
Ross: Uh, excuse me. Evolution is not for you to buy, Phoebe. Evolution is scientific fact. Like, like, the air we breathe, like gravity... Pheebs: Uh, okay, don't get me started on gravity.
Ross: You uh, you don't believe in gravity? Pheebs: Well, it's not so much that ya know, like I don't *believe* in it, ya know. It's just...I don't know. Lately I get the feeling that I'm not so much being pulled down, as I am being pushed.
Ross: How can you NOT BELIEVE in evolution? Pheebs: [shrugs] I unh-huh...Look at this funky shirt!!
Ross: Well, there ya go. Pheebs: Huh. So now, the REAL question is: who put those fossils there, and why...?
Ross: OPPOSABLE THUMBS!! Without evolution, how do YOU explain OPPOSABLE THUMBS?!? Pheebs: Maybe the overlords needed them to steer their spacecrafts!
Pheebs: Uh-oh! Scary Scientist Man!
Pheebs: Okay, Ross? Could you just open your mind like, *this* much?? Okay? Now wasn't there a time when the brightest minds in the world believed that the Earth was flat? And up until what, like, fifty years ago, you all thought the atom was the smallest thing, until you split it open, and this like, whole mess o' crap came out! Now, are you telling me that you are so unbelievably arrogant that you can't admit that there's a teeny, tiny possibility that you could be wrong about this?!?
Pheebs: I can't believe you caved. Ross: What? Pheebs: You just ABANDONED your whole belief system! I mean, before, I didn't agree with you, but at least I respected you. Ross: But uh.. Pheebs: Yeah...how...how are you gonna go in to work tomorrow? How...how are you gonna face the other science guys? How...how are you gonna face yourself? Oh! [Ross runs away dejected] Pheebs: That was fun. So who's hungry?
Let's call it my ALS imitation, colors reversed. How do you like it?
That's an interesting statement. Freedom is incompatible with materialistic naturalism. There is no doubt that naturalists attempt to muzzle creationists wherever they can (especially in public schools) and if naturalists had their way, there would be no freedom of speech for creationists. Moreoever, of America were founded by naturalists, we would not possibly have a Constitutional Republic (although sadly it is more like a democracy today than a republic). Instead, we would have a dictatorship of some type which is always the form of government for an atheistic state.
How do you think the Admin Moderator would like it?
That's not negotiation, nor is it a truce - it is blackmail, plain and simple.
And none of the above is what was offered/suggested. DO NOT assign that crap to what ALS said.
This from a man who considers "wafer-munching" to be an insult.
Moreoever, of America were founded by naturalists,
Like Franklin, Jefferson and Paine?
You mean "biblical" Christianity, don't you? If taking the bible seriously and adhering to the HISTORIC tenets of the Christian faith make me a "tunnel-visioned Christian" then I accept the label with glee. I love to engage in discussion with Christians from churches who ignore the bible and make up their own disconnected theology. They can't defend it becuase they have no authority for their non-rational heterodox beliefs other than themselves or the leaders of their denomination.
I think it's acceptable to agree to a policy of no personal abuse or ad hominems. I'm not going to pretend to be blameless, but I think they're usually written in haste and repented at leisure, and they damage the writer as much as the recipient. Unilateral disarmament in this respect is fine.
I would agree that posts that claim either than 'naturalism leads to (insert pet evil here)' or 'Christianity leads to (insert pet evil here)' might be ended by mutual agreement. I started contributing a few of the second a couple of months ago, largely to emphasize the point of the indefensibility of the first. I have no interest in continuing them. If I wanted to engage in flame wars about Christianity, I'd be on the religion forum.
As far as other restrictions go; I don't care. If someone posts the same lame link 50 times, it's trivial to point to a refutation 50 times.
I will say one other thing, as a product of at least 10 years experience on internet forums. Most don't work. Some are unmoderated and turn into incessant flame wars. Some are so tightly moderated that one side usually claims free discussion is impossible. The one unmoderated forum that I think did work, for a while (and I haven't been back there in years, so it may not work any more, for all I know) was the rec.football.college newsgroup. Given the intensity with which people support college teams, you'd think this was strange; but there was a consensus on that forum against 'rah-rah' kinds of posts (there was a particular name for them, but I forget what it was). You could discuss recruiting at your own college, or at someone else's; you could criticize someone else's head coach, or defend your own; but at the point excessive partisanship became obvious, even your fellow fans would point out you were going so far.
It IS an insult....a disgusting one at that. I dare you to post such a comment in "breaking news" (or the like) and see how many people agree with me.
I hadn't known about the oyster cracker thing, though. Seems a bit improper, consider Jesus was a Jew and oysters were unclean (I know, I know -- there aren't any oysters in oyster crackers; that's why I used the term "improper" rather than "sacriligeous").
Franklin was no naturalist and neither was Jefferson. Both believed in God. Franklin called for prayer at the Constitutional Convention and Jefferson was at the very least a theist. Paine was an obtreperous atheist, but he was ostracized by by virtually everyone at the end of his life for publishing his anti-Christian rantings (against the advice of Franklin).
A woman asked Franklin after the Const. Convention whether we had a monarchy or a republic. Franklin replied, "A republic, if you can keep it." Well, it is now clear that we can't keep it because the foundational principle behind our republic is that moral principles never change and human nature is base and never changes. Humanism (atheistic as it is) says just the opposite, ergo, we have drifted into a democracy (does not bode well!) in this century. Our politicians make their decisions based on polls (that be democracy) and special interests (that be democracy) and the belief that the State can solve the problems of society (democracy), which it can't. But don't get me started, I won't be able to stop.
We already know lots of euphemisms for much of that list, but the Internet Flame-Troll is a fairly new concept. We'd have to invent some new term like "Master at Baiting People."
ROFL!
Was there a lot of jokes made about each other schools?
This is one of my favorites:
What does the "N" on the University of Nebraska football helmut stand for?
Answer: Nawledge.
There is no conflict whatsoever between naturalism and Deism. I consider myself to be both a naturalist and a Deist.
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