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Evolution Disclaimer Supported
The Advocate (Baton Rouge) ^ | 12/11/02 | WILL SENTELL

Posted on 12/11/2002 6:28:08 AM PST by A2J

By WILL SENTELL

wsentell@theadvocate.com

Capitol news bureau

High school biology textbooks would include a disclaimer that evolution is only a theory under a change approved Tuesday by a committee of the state's top school board.

If the disclaimer wins final approval, it would apparently make Louisiana just the second state in the nation with such a provision. The other is Alabama, which is the model for the disclaimer backers want in Louisiana.

Alabama approved its policy six or seven years ago after extensive controversy that included questions over the religious overtones of the issue.

The change approved Tuesday requires Louisiana education officials to check on details for getting publishers to add the disclaimer to biology textbooks.

It won approval in the board's Student and School Standards/ Instruction Committee after a sometimes contentious session.

"I don't believe I evolved from some primate," said Jim Stafford, a board member from Monroe. Stafford said evolution should be offered as a theory, not fact.

Whether the proposal will win approval by the full state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education on Thursday is unclear.

Paul Pastorek of New Orleans, president of the board, said he will oppose the addition.

"I am not prepared to go back to the Dark Ages," Pastorek said.

"I don't think state boards should dictate editorial content of school textbooks," he said. "We shouldn't be involved with that."

Donna Contois of Metairie, chairwoman of the committee that approved the change, said afterward she could not say whether it will win approval by the full board.

The disclaimer under consideration says the theory of evolution "still leaves many unanswered questions about the origin of life.

"Study hard and keep an open mind," it says. "Someday you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on earth."

Backers say the addition would be inserted in the front of biology textbooks used by students in grades 9-12, possibly next fall.

The issue surfaced when a committee of the board prepared to approve dozens of textbooks used by both public and nonpublic schools. The list was recommended by a separate panel that reviews textbooks every seven years.

A handful of citizens, one armed with a copy of Charles Darwin's "Origin of the Species," complained that biology textbooks used now are one-sided in promoting evolution uncritically and are riddled with factual errors.

"If we give them all the facts to make up their mind, we have educated them," Darrell White of Baton Rouge said of students. "Otherwise we have indoctrinated them."

Darwin wrote that individuals with certain characteristics enjoy an edge over their peers and life forms developed gradually millions of years ago.

Backers bristled at suggestions that they favor the teaching of creationism, which says that life began about 6,000 years ago in a process described in the Bible's Book of Genesis.

White said he is the father of seven children, including a 10th-grader at a public high school in Baton Rouge.

He said he reviewed 21 science textbooks for use by middle and high school students. White called Darwin's book "racist and sexist" and said students are entitled to know more about controversy that swirls around the theory.

"If nothing else, put a disclaimer in the front of the textbooks," White said.

John Oller Jr., a professor at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette, also criticized the accuracy of science textbooks under review. Oller said he was appearing on behalf of the Louisiana Family Forum, a Christian lobbying group.

Oller said the state should force publishers to offer alternatives, correct mistakes in textbooks and fill in gaps in science teachings. "We are talking about major falsehoods that should be addressed," he said.

Linda Johnson of Plaquemine, a member of the board, said she supports the change. Johnson said the new message of evolution "will encourage students to go after the facts."


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evolution; rades
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To: Fester Chugabrew
"See my rebuttal to your mistake.

All you did was pretend there is a distinction between "depends on" and "derives from."

Not at all. You are just pretending that I didn't. The proof is in the post, to which you have never replied.

If you care to tell me how these two differ I might consider whether what you've presented is really a "rebuttal."

Words have meanings, particularily in context. Read my post & reply, or don't. -- Your call.

3,021 posted on 01/05/2003 3:57:08 PM PST by tpaine
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To: viaveritasvita
Of all the creation groups I've investigated, I have the most respect for and agreement with Morris' group, Institute for Creation Research.

Co-starring Duane Gish. Gish and Morris have combined to write some of the most disingenuous and downright silly stuff I've ever seen linked here. Here's on the ICR site even today is an article written by Gish from 1994 citing evolutionist Colbert in 1953 as saying that whale origins are simply a mystery:

Speaking of whales, Colbert said, "These mammals must have had an ancient origin, for no intermediate forms are apparent in the fossil record between the whales and the ancestral Cretaceous placentals. Like the bats, the whales (using the term in a general and inclusive sense) appear suddenly in early Tertiary times, fully adapted by profound modifications of the basic mammalian structure for a highly specialized mode of life. Indeed, the whales are even more isolated with relation to other mammals than the bats; they stand quite alone." [3]
That looks awful, considering that Gish is even there waving away the new legged cetacean transitionals Pakicetus and Ambulocetus. Colbert's observation has been outdated for years even by 1994. It looks worse when he dismisses the "new" transitionals for having legs and thus not being whales. (But if they looked the same as modern whales they wouldn't be transitionals! Catch-22.)

When some of the ICR staff looked at the picture with the knowledge that Thewissen and fellow workers called this creature a whale, they laughed. Evolutionists may claim that this was because of ignorance of subtle distinctions of anatomy; on the other hand, associating the word "whale" with a creature with large and powerful front and hind legs does seem a bit ludicrous to skeptics.
It's all like that. Charlatans trolling for suckers.
3,022 posted on 01/05/2003 3:59:24 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Tribune7
Would it be more important for someone to believe in that or to believe in God?

This is a false dichotomy. Would God require us to believe a lie?

3,023 posted on 01/05/2003 4:00:18 PM PST by Junior
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To: VadeRetro
1953

1955. Typo.

3,024 posted on 01/05/2003 4:00:38 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: viaveritasvita
Surely in science, a law is distinct from (and...above?) a theory.

Distinct, yes; "above," no. Theories never "graduate" to become "laws" in science. "Laws" in science are nothing more than empirically establish generalizations. The minute we find and verify an observation that violates a scientific "Law," the "Law" is either modified if feasible to make consistent with both new and old empirical evidence, or abandoned out right.

Scientific "Laws" differ from scientific theories in that they lack the broad explanatory power of the latter. "Bode's Law" tells us what the planetary spacings are; but provides nothing of explanatory value about it. It describes a phenomonon, but says nothing of the mechanisms behind it.

In short, scientific "Laws" are empirically derived and are characterized as "descriptive"; theories also fit the empirical evidence, but additionally provide a framework for explaining a broad range of phenomona, and are capable of falsification. Thus, they are referred to as being "explanatory" versus a "Law," which is merely "descriptive."

I understand the laws of thermo to be absolute. Is this incorrect?

All scientific "Laws" are provisional, since they are based soley on empirical evidence. Again, in science, a "Law" is not "above" or "better" or "more refined" than a theory.

Lastly, no one is arguing that the 2nd LoT is invalid. The arguments that evolution somehow violate the 2nd LoT are invalid, as they either mischaracterize what the 2nd LoT means, or leave out critical details, such as the ability for parts of some systems to experience a DECREASE in entropy as long as the entire system (including it's surroundings) experiences a net INCREASE. Such phenomona are not violative of the the 2nd LoT.

3,025 posted on 01/05/2003 4:10:18 PM PST by longshadow
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To: viaveritasvita
What I meant was the creationist argument that the 2ndLoT forbids abiogenesis or even evolution. I don't have any problems with the 2ndLoT only with this argument and that's not only me but there are more and more creationists who say it is bunk.

Also, you seem to think that a theory is just a step below a law and that with enough evidence a theory may become a law. This however is a deep rooted misconception.
Theories and laws are two different critters and the one doesn't turn into the other. A scientific theory is an explanation whereas a scientific law is a mathematical description of an observed regularity.
You may find more here or here.

3,026 posted on 01/05/2003 4:12:47 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: viaveritasvita
So I found the infomation on Berekely's website. I fail to see how that's relevant unless you have reason to believe they are misreporting the contents of da Vinci's papers.

The IEEE reports similarly.
The Astronomy Dept. at New Mexico State University concurs.
As does the Leonardo da Vinci exhibit at the American Museum of Natural History.

If you want to read The Codex Leicester in its original form, however, you'll have to contact Bill Gates, who bought it in 1995. I will fully admit that I have not done so myself; I can't read mirror-imaged 16th-Century Italian.

3,027 posted on 01/05/2003 4:14:45 PM PST by Condorman
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To: BMCDA
"So you think it's blasphemous if people claim that the term 'God' can also mean the gods of the sun or fertility rites or reason or rain, etc.?"

Basically, yes. To equate in any way the God of creation with anything else that mankind can worship or call "god" is just about THE definition of blasphemy.
3,028 posted on 01/05/2003 4:16:08 PM PST by viaveritasvita
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To: viaveritasvita
"So you think it's blasphemous if people claim that the term 'God' can also mean the gods of the sun or fertility rites or reason or rain, etc.?"

Basically, yes. To equate in any way the God of creation with anything else that mankind can worship or call "god" is just about THE definition of blasphemy. 3028 -vvv-

What do you propose as the punishment for blasphemy?

3,029 posted on 01/05/2003 4:23:57 PM PST by tpaine
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To: tpaine
What do you propose as the punishment for blasphemy?

JewishEncyclopedia: BLASPHEMY.

3,030 posted on 01/05/2003 4:29:55 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Condorman
"He" who?

Thank you for this link -- a quick perusal showed it worthy to be added to my list of websites to check out. It appeared to be a credible Christian site.

I'm assuming you sent me this "memo" because I mentioned that Darwin once said he didn't want to murder God as well as the 2nd law of thermo issue. I'm only able to say that I got my info from Colson's book ("How Now Shall We Live?"), which quoted Time magazine as attributing this statement to Darwin. The info I have shows that the Time quote was footnoted, but I no longer have a copy of Colson's book. Eventually, I'll get another copy and you can be sure I'll look at the footnote. For the moment, I don't see this statement attributed to Darwin as "recanting." I think it's within the realm of reason that he would make such a statement (in any number of contexts) without refuting his own scientific beliefs.

The 2nd Law of Thermo is another story and the most honest response is that I do not have enough knowledge to go into whether it was operational before or after the Fall (or was that the flood? See!). I will always keep this question in mind in my readings and research.

Again, thanks for the link.
3,031 posted on 01/05/2003 4:39:54 PM PST by viaveritasvita
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To: B. Rabbit
"I don't have to respect your God, just you, which I will. You may not see the difference, but there is a difference."

Yes, I see the difference. I submit to you that you have it exactly backwards. Of course, a certain level of respect for each other is good for civil discourse, etc., but you ultimately don't have to respect me. God, however, is another story altogether, my friend.

"I don't believe your God exists."

Are you an atheist?

"Do you respect pagan gods? Or Zeus? If I was a believer in the Norse god of Thor, would you pay respects to him?"

No, I don't respect pagan gods and I pray I would never "pay respects" to the Norse god of Thor nor any other pagan god. I would try to be respectful to you.

"Do not join the debate if it hurts your feelings when a member of the opposing side attacks your theories..."

Point taken, but I don't think my feelings were hurt so much as my anger was roused. I'm not a debater (which y'all have probably noticed!), but I think there's a balance between discrediting your opponent's theories with presenting valid theories of your own.
3,032 posted on 01/05/2003 4:52:34 PM PST by viaveritasvita
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To: Condorman; BMCDA
"I would be nice to see the newbies use some original arguments once in a while...."

My humble apologies. I think the arguments on both sides are pretty well set out -- the most any of us have to hope for (barring some huge discovery that will rock the world as soon as I post this) is different ways of presenting the arguments, some words or phrases that will help the opposing side understand something. There's not much new under the sun, kiddo.
3,033 posted on 01/05/2003 4:58:30 PM PST by viaveritasvita
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To: viaveritasvita
I hope you do examine that AiG link. It also covers the 2nd LoT, the "Why are there still monkeys?" question, and a host of other arguments that, quite frankly, the FR old-timers (and also Vade) are getting tired of putting to bed.
3,034 posted on 01/05/2003 4:59:29 PM PST by Condorman
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To: viaveritasvita
There's not much new under the sun, kiddo.

I beg to differ, Venerable Geezer. New critters are dug up, brushed off and placed into the puzzle on a daily basis. Sure it's a little difficult because we're not sure what the picture on the box looks like, but we can reconstruct a fairly accurate representation just based on how the pieces fit together.

3,035 posted on 01/05/2003 5:12:25 PM PST by Condorman
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To: viaveritasvita
I was just asking because some people (who are not atheists) seem to think otherwise on the Boy Scouts thread.
I only tried to point out over there that the term 'God' (with the Big "G") either means the Judeo-Christian god and only him (when it suits them) or it refers to whatever supernatural concept one can think of (whenever this is suitable, i.e. constitutionality of the term 'God').
3,036 posted on 01/05/2003 5:15:51 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: VadeRetro
"To get to what you believe, you have to be so selective in what you take from science as to put the result totally at odds with science."

Those of us who believe in the God of Creation, sees this the other way around: We believe that, in order for y'all to get at your belief that there is no God who created all, you had to selectively spin science to put the results at odds with God.

"AFAIK nobody but ICR thinks it formed in a flood."

And.....what? That means it didn't form in a flood?

What does AFAIK stand for?
3,037 posted on 01/05/2003 5:16:26 PM PST by viaveritasvita
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To: f.Christian
Ok. Since I'm the newbie, I'll bite....

Evolutionists: Why are there no fossils half way past the cambrian level?

Hope I posed that question correctly!!
3,038 posted on 01/05/2003 5:19:02 PM PST by viaveritasvita
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To: viaveritasvita
AFAIK = as far as I know
3,039 posted on 01/05/2003 5:20:21 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: viaveritasvita
Those of us who believe in the God of Creation, sees this the other way around: We believe that, in order for y'all to get at your belief that there is no God who created all, you had to selectively spin science to put the results at odds with God.

"Everyone" used to be a literal Genesis creationist. Nevertheless, the geological evidence, when people started giving it serious and systematic study, was undeniable. Those who will follow the evidence did follow the evidence. Those who won't, didn't.

AFAIK = "As far as I know"
OTOH = "On the other hand"
LOL = "Laughing out loud"

3,040 posted on 01/05/2003 5:23:16 PM PST by VadeRetro
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