Posted on 02/25/2013 9:25:42 PM PST by Seizethecarp
Today, I had a conversation with an investigator from the Cold Case Posse in AZ. We talked and I expanded on several dossiers filled with evidence for over an hour. They asked for all of my relevant information on Obama, the Harry Bounel alias evidence, and the dossiers I completed on Stanley Ann Dunham, her parents, and Michelle Obama as well. They have it all. BTW they also say that it looks like my information cannot be disproved and will be useful.
I have proof, definitive proof that Stanley Ann Dunham was in WA state in "1961" as per the issuance of a SSN numident in her name with the SSN 535-40-8522. There is no way that she was in HI and I have proof because in the fall she was in college in WA, not HI.
(Excerpt) Read more at obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com ...
It's as good an idea as any, why don't you try and see what you can find?
“Regarding your quote of SvenMagnussen, why are you quoting him?”
I saw that too. I thought it was Sven at first.
See incoming FRmail
Good find!
Puts the kibosh on the CLN theory.
Photoshopped.
I dont think so- people dont leave 1/2 million to people they dont know.. example: why would madelyn leave 1/2 million to jo ann newmans son, or malcolm x’s son, or any other retarded person of misinformaion? thats not even common sense..ever heard the phrase “follow the money”
Madelyn Dunham, who was the first female vice president of the Bank of Hawaii. Barack and Michelle Obama’s 2009 tax return, posted on the White House website, indicates the Obamas inherited almost $500,000 worth of the bank’s stock from the president’s grandmother. - See more at: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle-obama-president-s-grandmother-vp-little-bitty-community-bank-faced-gender-bias#sthash.09vI4fs3.dpuf
There is another person called “Anna” (her first name) not like “Stanley ann”, that is part of the dunham family from madelyn.. whoever ANNA is, is barrys mom (that probally died in 1970 according to virginia goeldner)the same time barry came to live with his grand mother.. when peeps understand that madelyn wouldnt leave her life savings to some retarded person like malcom x or jo ann newmans son (no relation to madelyn) then we might can solve this..
Article 2.
(1)A foreign child of less than 5 years age who is adopted by a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if such an adoption is declared legal by the Pengadilan Negeri at the residence of the person adopting the child.
(2)Said declaration of legality by the Pengadilan Negeri shall be requested by the person adopting the child within 1 year after such an adoption or within 1 year after enforcement of this law.
Article 3.
(1)A child outside a marriage of a mother who is a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia or a child out of a legal marriage, but who has in a case of divorce been assigned to the care of its mother, a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia, who follows the nationality of the father, a foreigner, may present a petition to the Minister of Justice in order to acquire the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if, after, having acquired the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, it possesses no other nationality or states at the same time to have released another nationality according to the procedure stipulated by the legal provisions of the country of origin and/or according to the procedure stipulated by the agreement on the settlement of the bi-nationality between the Republic of Indonesia and the country in question.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Obama, a child of divorced parents, had to renounce his U.S. Citizenship to petition the Indonesian government for citizenship. We know he was successful because he was identified as an Indonesian on his 1968 school record as Indonesian.
MMaschin - “Didn’t you read your link?”
No, I read that.
But Todd’s post specifically said Obama “naturalized”. The Article 2 adoption section doesn’t say if that is considered naturalization (and the naturalization section doesn’t list adoption as an exception), nor does it say what happens to a child over the age of 5 years (I would assume he has to go through the normal naturalization process at 18), and finally the adoption section does not say that the 5 year old adoptee must give up his other citizenship.
The law in each Article explicit says when a person has to give up their other nationality, Article 2 does not:
Article 3 - “it possesses no other nationality or states at the same time to have released another nationality according to the procedure stipulated by the legal provisions of the country of origin and/or according to the procedure stipulated by the agreement on the settlement of the bi-nationality between the Republic of Indonesia and the country in question.”
Article 4 - “after having acquired the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, have no other nationality or at the time that they present a petition they also make a statement as to having released another nationality which they may possibly possess, in accordance with the legal provisions prevailing in the country of their origin or according to the provisions of the Agreement on the settlement of the bi-nationality between the Republic of Indonesia and the country in question.”
Article 5 - “have no nationality, or have lost his nationality if the petitioner acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia or states at the time to have released another nationality according to the legal provisions of the country of origin or according to the legal provisions of the Agreement on the settlement of the bi-nationality between the Republic of Indonesia and the country concerned.”
Article 7 - “except in case when she acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia she possesses still another nationality, in which case the statement may not be made.”
Article 9 - “The citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia acquired by a husband is automatically valid for his wife, except if, after the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia has been acquired, the wife possesses still another nationality.”
Article 11 - “The provision of para 1 does not apply in case the person, after having regained the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, still possesses another nationality.”
Artical 16 - “The provisions of para 1 is not applicable in case said child, after having acquired the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia still possesses another nationality.”
Artical 17- “The citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia is lost because of:”
“a.acquiring another nationality out of one’s own free will, with the understanding that if the person concerned is, at the time that said other nationality is acquired”
“b.not having rejected or having released another nationality whilst the person concerned has had the opportunity as to that effect;”
“c.being recognized by an alien as his/her child if the person concerned has not reached the age of 18 and is not married yet and does not become stateless with the loss of the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia;”
“k.other than for state’s service, domiciling abroad during 5 consecutive years by not declaring one’s wish as to continue being a citizen before the period has lapsed and thereafter every two years; such a wish shall be declared to the Representation of the Republic of Indonesia at one’s residence.”
Under the Transitional Regulations
Article I - “becomes a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia if she has no other nationality.”
Article IV - “is a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia, if the person, with this provision or heretofore, has no other nationality. The citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia acquired by said person is valid retroactively the date that the father/mother acquires said citizenship.”
Article 2 makes no mention of loss of other nationality.
BTW, under the Concluding Regulations:
Article I - “A citizen of the Republic of Indonesia who is within the territory of the Republic of Indonesia is considered to possess no other nationality.”
This article in the law can be construed to allow for a person with dual citizenship to exist within their legal system.
Todd/Sven - with regards to your post (#369) about Article 3, it only applies if the mother is a citizen of Indonesia. SAD/O/S kept her US passport continously from the 1960s to the 1980s so she did not lose her US citzenship which under Article 7 of Law 62 she would have had to give up.
Also Article 3 says that the a person musy give up their other citizenship “according to the procedure stipulated by the legal provisions of the country of origin.” Under US law at the time a minor child could not give up their US citizenship and a parent could not give it up for them.
He could become an Indonesian citizen in a much simplier manner.
From the link:
“Article 1. Citizens of the Republic of Indonesia are:
...
b.persons who at their birth have a legal family relationship with their father, a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia, with the understanding that said citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia starts as from the existence of that legal family relationship and that said legal family relationship is created before the persons concerned have reached the age of 18 or before they are married at an earlier age;”
[So this could apply. Lolo Soetoro was the father and the relationship started before Obama was 18 or married.]
“Article 2.
(1)A foreign child of less than 5 years age who is adopted by a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia acquires the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if such an adoption is declared legal by the Pengadilan Negeri at the residence of the person adopting the child.
(2)Said declaration of legality by the Pengadilan Negeri shall be requested by the person adopting the child within 1 year after such an adoption or within 1 year after enforcement of this law.”
[Could Obama have been legally adopted before the age of 5 by Lolo Soetoro? Yes. The marriage of Lolo Soetoro to SAD was in March of 1965. Obama was only 3 years old at the time. This left over a year for before this provision would have ‘expired’ for the given situation. ]
So Obama would not have had to followed Article 5 of the law to acquire Indonesian citizenship.
All known data points indicate that Obama lived as an Indonesian citizen in Indonesia. NOTHING contradicts that assumption and there are various (but only a few) documents that SUPPORT it. The formal records of the period are clearly under lock down.
Conversely, we have nothing to support US citizenship for Obama during the period. And we have documents that indicate there is official doubt or questions as to his USC status.
In higher mathematics when you are trying to find an equation that represents a set of data points you have totrial and error fit the equations and then measure the difference to the observed data points. The more data points the easier the task. When the equation perfectly matches all the data points - if you have enough data points - then you can be assured you have found the right equation. But in most cases you have to choose the ‘best fit’ equation that has the lowest total differences to the data points.
Right now, based on the admittedly sketchy data we have - Obama as an Indonesian citizen between 1968 and 1971 fits much more than him as a US citizen during the same time.
Datapoints
- The following entry in a letter concerning a request by Lolo Soetoro to stay in US. “Nothing in the file to document the status of the spouses son….refernce to 101(b)(1)(B) and 212(a)…”
- 1968 Obama comes off his mothers US passport. In fact that is the only change during this amendment. So this action was done specifically to remove him. If Obama was considered a US citizen by the US this action makes no sense.
- Education record from Indonesia indicating Obama is Barry Soetoro, his is of Muslim faith and every appears as it would for a normal Indonesian citizen.
- Indonesian law indicates a child that is less than 5 years and adopted shall become an Indonesian citizen. The date of marriage and age of Obama would allow this to occur. It seems likely - especially in a Muslim culture.
- Indonesian law indicates anytime a child under 18 and who is not married starts a legal relationship with their Indonesian citizen father they shall be Indonesian citizens.
- Indonesia does no allow dual citizenship. Thus, the US would not allow a known citizen of Indonesia to secure US citizenship.
Clearly the thing that would bring this to a close is the existence of US passport for Obama and records showing it was used to enter the US in the late 60s and early 70s. This would shut this path of conversation down. But for something so simple it has not happened.
Also, remember that the date of marriage for Lolo and SAD was often and commonly reported to be 1967 - when they moved to Indonesia. This would have put Obama over the age of 5 and eliminated some of the routes to Indonesian citizenship above. But later it comes known that the marriage was really in March of 1965. Now Obama is only 3.
Excellent information and analysis.
Should be put in bold neon letters.
Also, just because the school registration says “Indonesian” doesn’t mean it was true (legally the citizenship couldn’t be changed, so there would be no docs to show that change) and it was probably put that way to avoid confusion and complications.
And he kept his (supposed) us citizenship*.
No CLN, no social services agency, no naturalization in 1983.
*(even though we now know there’s a similar lack of real birth docs, back then they could cobble stuff together from Hawaii’s loosy-goosy system.)
Keep up the good work, 4zoltan!
“Todd/Sven - with regards to your post (#369) about Article 3, it only applies if the mother is a citizen of Indonesia. SAD/O/S kept her US passport continously from the 1960s to the 1980s so she did not lose her US citzenship which under Article 7 of Law 62 she would have had to give up.”
Read #369 carefully. Dual U.S. Citizenship/Indonesian citizenship is not an automatic issuance of a CLN. Issuance of a CLN has always been discretionary on the part of the Secretary of State. That was until the Court of Appeals decision in Fox v. Clinton (2012).
The Appeals Court is very critical of the State Department for “arbitrary and capricious” application of Section 1 of the INA since 1959. The Appeals Court makes it clear the State Department is not qualified to interpret foreign state laws, rules, regulations or procedures. In other words, if a U.S. Citizen has obtained foreign nationality they did not have when they were born, then they are naturalized in a foreign state. The State Department is not qualified to make a distinction between naturalization and obtaining citizenship through “right of return” or any other method a U.S. Citizen obtains foreign nationality.
The Appeals Court remanded the District Court to instruct the State Department to reconsider all of their policies and procedures for issuing a CLN. A stinging rebuke people at the State Department do not want to talk about.
Fox v. Clinton (2012) Court of Appeals
Where did this ‘Anna’ allegedly die at in 1970?
“Under US law at the time a minor child could not give up their US citizenship and a parent could not give it up for them.”
This is a false narrative begun to protect Obama. The INA has several situations where a minor with U.S. Citizenship living in a foreign cannot be issued a CLN involuntarily. It does not state a minor cannot be issued a CLN after voluntarily requesting it.
How does a 5-year-old voluntarily renounce his U.S. Citizenship since a parent cannot renounce it for the child?
The State Department requests the surrender temporary guardianship of the minor to a locally employed staff member of the U.S. Embassy for the express purpose of lobbying the SoS on behalf of the minor. The locally employed staff member is a citizen of the country the U.S. Embassy is located in.
The consular affairs officer or diplomatic officer handling the case is primarily interested in protecting the interest of the U.S. and not protecting the minor from doing something they’ll regret. Protecting the minor is the job of the parent and the locally employed staff member acting as agent for the minor.
The CAO or diplomatic officer spends most of their time, energy, and effort checking to see if there is a missing persons bulletin on the child or to determine if the child is involved in a custody dispute. Baring these issues, there is nothing to prevent the CAO from recommending a CLN be issued by the SoS since the child can always return to the U.S. and recapture their U.S. Citizenship within 6 months of reaching the age of majority.
Why is the minor given until 6 months after reaching the age of majority. In Obama’s case, 18 was the age of majority. He became an adult at 18 and was capable of acting on his own behalf. His parents, guardian nor anyone else could stop him from recapturing his U.S. Citizenship. It’s not automatic. It must be applied for and an Oath of Allegiance must be stated before an officer of the State Department. For his own reasons, Obama chose not recapture his U.S. Citizenship at 18. Instead, he chose to maintain his Indonesian nationality while living in America as a Permanent Resident Alien. Eventually, he naturalized as a U.S. Citizen in 1983.
From your post,
“1 b.persons who at their birth have a legal family relationship with their father,a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia,....”
There wasn’t a legal family relationship with Lolo when 0 was born, so 1 b
wouldn’t apply.
I agree.
Thank you for that correct.
That section would not apply.
This is all the more reason that the marriage date being cited as 1967 is suspicious. If you look at any article before the SAD passport records came out they show 1967 or 1968 as the marriage date of Soetoro and SAD. Why? Someone did not want the 1965 date out and was continually feeding the 1967 date.
“So this could apply”
[But Lolo did not have a “legal family relationship” at the time Obama was born.]
“Could Obama have been legally adopted before the age of 5 by Lolo Soetoro? Yes.”
[Article 2 does not say that the child has to give up their other citizenship. All of the other Articles that mention giving up your other citzenship are quite explicit.]
“All known data points indicate that Obama lived as an Indonesian citizen in Indonesia. “
I would not dispute that except to say he was a small child.
“Conversely, we have nothing to support US citizenship for Obama during the period.”
[Except he was a US citizen by birth in Hawaii. see Mix memo]
“The following entry in a letter concerning a request by Lolo Soetoro to stay in US.”
[The response to that doubt was in a memo by W.L. Mix - “The person in question is a United States citizen by virtue of his birth in Honolulu, Hawaii, Aug. 4, 1961. He is living with the applicants’ spouse in Honolulu, Hawaii. He is considered the applicant’s step-child, within the meaning of Sec. 101(b)(1)(B), of the act, by virtue of the marriage of the applicant to the child’s mother on March 5, 1965.”]
“- 1968 Obama comes off his mothers US passport. In fact that is the only change during this amendment.”
[It could also have been to get him his own US passport, especially if they were planning on sending him back to the US alone. Didn’t he make a several trips to the US [Christmas, 1969; to interview at Punahou school before bneing accepted] before he returned for good. Was SAD with him on those trips?]
“- Indonesia does no allow dual citizenship. Thus, the US would not allow a known citizen of Indonesia to secure US citizenship.”
[That may or may not be true -
“Concluding regulations.
Article I.
A citizen of the Republic of Indonesia who is within the territory of the Republic of Indonesia is considered to possess no other nationality.”
Notice the language, a person could be considered to have another citizenship when outside “the territory of the Republic of Indonesia”. Much like someone who has dual US/British citizenship. When they are in England, they are governed by the rules for British subjects.
That Ex-pat blog you referred me to earlier implied that when SAD married Lolo, she could have simply waited a year and then become an Indonesian citizen and kept her US citizenship. That’s dual citizenship.]
BTW, I ‘ve always thought that an adoption by Lolo was not out of the question and had the marriage survived would have been a certainty. But at this point I’ve not seen any documentation for it.
“....Also,remember that the date of marriage for Lolo and SAD was often and commonly reported to be 1967 - when they moved to Indonesia. This would have put Obama over the age of 5 and eliminated some of the routes to Indonesian citizenship above. But later it comes known that the marriage was really in March of 1965. Now Obama is only 3.”
OK, legalities, etc aside....
a 3 year old child (or even a 5 year old) doesn’t have the CAPACITY to renounce their citizenship.
From that standpoint I don’t think it was possible.
What would prompt Obama to want to relinquish his U.S. citizenship in Indonesia at such a young age? Do you think Stanley Ann influenced him or coached him to do it in front of a embassy official?
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