Ryan is a good man, but does not redeem the abortionist/homosexualist statist Romney

Aug 11, 2012 | Jim Robinson

[Jim Robinson]

Bottom line, it’s all about religion. This country and our constitutional government was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and beliefs and will work under no other belief system. Our rights come from God, not government. Look it up.

The godless left has been working to destroy that through their liberal progressive statist politics ever since the founding. And they’ve made great strides in that direction since WWII. Obama and Romney are two sides of the same godless liberal progressive coin.

Oh, you say he’s a devout Mormon so how can he be godless?

Well, the same way that the godless leftist Harry Reid claims to be a devout Mormon and the godless abortionists Obama, Pelosi, Biden, et al, claim to be devout Christians.

These people are pure evil and they’re trying to turn our constitution on its head. As Ryan readily admits, our rights DO come from God and our constitution was designed to defend them and to RESTRICT government from intruding into areas of no constitutional concern to it.

Must I remind you that the lying etch-a-sketch myth Romney advocated nothing but godless leftist positions including abortion, homosexualism and statism for almost the entirety of his adult life while at the same time claiming to be a devout Mormon and high up muckety muck in his church!!

This is EVIL!! Romney is an evil godless man and he lies for power!!

[so_real]

Am I missing something here?

I do think you are missing something, mojitojoe. FR is not the command center from which a benevolent leader directs the thoughts and actions of his acolytes. As Kevmo indicated in Post #2199, that is the thinking held by the GOP as they look "at this site as a parade that they want to get into the front of so they can lead it". That is simply not the way of it here. FR is a meeting place for God-fearing, Constitution-protecting, self-governing, small-government grass-roots Americans who found this site and were amazed to find so many across the nation just like us. We are birds of a feather that flocked. We are the TEA Party before "Taxed" became the central issue. Is Jim Robinson a "leader"? Yes, absolutely. But in the sense that he talks the talk and walks the walk, setting an example by his actions and not his rhetoric. A fair portion of the population here are likewise inclined. I doubt Robinson was even the first to see through Romney's veil in 2008. Romney has not changed for the better since then. Why anyone at FR would advocate closing their eyes, plugging their ears, and pretending that he has just because he is the "Republican" candidate is beyond me. If Romney embodies the philosophy and ideals of the new Republican Party, then we must not be Republicans any more. But we are still conservatives posting on a conservative web site and ready to welcome political leadership willing and able to represent us truthfully.

[Jim Robinson]

Well, there he was teaching the flock to lie for the LDS!!

[greyfoxx39]

I do not know who he is. From the site you referenced, he is apparently a professor at BYU...but there are a few very liberal professors there.

Well, Jeff...he is a pretty influential person in the mormon church. Sorry you aren't up to date.

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Dr. Robert L. Millet (born December 30, 1947 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana) is a professor of ancient scripture and emeritus Dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young University (BYU) in Provo, Utah. Millet is a Latter-day Saint author and speaker with more than 60 published works on virtually all aspects of Mormonism. Millet co-founded the evangelical-Mormon dialogue.^[1]

He appears frequently as a commentator on BYUTV and in other visible roles at assorted media outlets as Manager of Outreach and Interfaith Relations for Church Public Affairs. As a religion instructor, Millet has become known for his "milk before meat" approach of avoiding less popular LDS doctrines when discussing the church with non-Mormons.

Millet is considered one of the foremost scholars on the Joseph Smith Translation (also known as the Inspired Version) of the Bible.

Millet received a Ph.D. from Florida State University in biblical studies and contemporary theology and a Master's Degree in Psychology from BYU. Millet has been a member of BYU faculty since 1983.

Millet has six children with his wife, Shauna Sizemore Millet, whom he wed in 1971.

Among other writings of Millet are the book Talking with God: Divine Conversations That Transform Daily Life (2010), "The Historical Jesus: A Latter-day Saint Perspective" in Paul Y. Hoskisson, edited Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures.

Link

[exit82]

In my opinion we have gone beyond discussing religion, but have descended into using the Word of God as a bludgeon against people who don’t agree with us.

Some relish that as sport. I do not.

I would rather find common ground and build a consensus.Because the future of America and the people in it are too important to get lost in the weeds over who we disgaree with.

If FR is a missionary society, fine, but move it to where religion is the main focus of the discussion. That is more appropriate. And we have such a section.With a competent moderator.

But if you cannot see where this has descended, then I cannot be of any help to you.

I know saying anything remotely like this makes me a target, but that just proves my point.

This entire thread has not been FR’s finest hour.

[kevao]

I would imagine that if you swept thru the THOUSANDS of "ABO" references on FR over the past four months, that the overwhelming "sweep" of comments either assume or imply that "ABO" = ALL voters in ALL states MUST vote Romney. In fact, it's oft' been communicated that no exceptions are to be tolerated for that mindset.

Sorry, Colofornian. I cannot agree with this, because it simply has not been my experience these past few months. I can't think of a single ABOer who has ever freaked out about losing the deep blue state of California, for example, because all the ABRers were throwing their votes away on some third party candidate. I don't want to offend you, but I suggest it is possible that you are presuming that all these ABOers are morons, who think Romney would actually have a real chance in CA if not for you silly ABRers throwing away your votes. It just might be that when these people talk about wasting a vote, they might be referring to, as I am always referring to, only the toss-up states where it really matters. I throw that out there for your consideration.

We consistently see from posters the notion that Virgil Goode or Tom Hoefling "can't win"...yet that same acknowledgement is almost NEVER offered to Romney's chances in blue states.

I think I can help with this one. I have said many times that neither Goode nor Hoefling can win, meaning that when the electoral votes are all tallied, it is a 100% certainty that neither will be the next POTUS. And for some reason, that fairly simple and obvious observation has been (mis-)construed in the strangest of ways. Yesterday, someone even equated my statement to the Dredd Scott case. No, I am not making that up. Really.

But when I, and all the other ABOers I know of, point out that neither Goode nor Hoefling will possibly be the next POTUS, that is not to say that we believe Romney is competitive in every single state in the Union. Because we don't. So while I understand you are frustrated, I don't really understand why my observation about Goode's or Hoefling's prospects is the cause of your frustration.

[CedarDave]

Well, he does not uphold the constitution. He’s a gun grabbing, abortionist/homosexualist, global warming pushing, socialist healthcare advocating, big government statist who doesn’t give a damn about the declaration, the constitution or our unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. He’s more concerned about unconstitutionally expanding government power and upholding the liberal/progressive status quo!!

I don't for a minute believe Romney has changed his mind about basic constitutional issues that he so strongly ignored, denied or opposed just a few short years ago. He is the most two-faced, flip-flopping presidential candidate we have ever had, exceeding even the flip-flops of John Kerry back in 2004. He is the consummate politician, a firm believer in crony capitalism, and a fence sitter who truly will come down on both sides of every issue if it appears beneficial to his political future.

Having said that I don't believe his Mormon beliefs should factor into it. You can assert that his beliefs have given him permission to lie and be deceitful in order to advance his religion, but I'm not sure that leads him to be almost the equivalent of the Antichrist as so many depict him on here. On the other hand many politicians of all political stripes and religious backgrounds use lies and deceit as they seek political power and adhere to the "ends justify the means" political methodology. The most recent of these include John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and Nancy Pelosi (Obama, of course, is in an entirely different category).

My bottom line is that we can oppose Romney on many many facets without bringing his LDS religion into the discussion and making it the main subject for opposing his candidacy.

[Colofornian]

But that does not take away from or change the essential doctrine that Jesus Christ, born of Mary and died on the Cross for all of us, and raised the third day, is Savior and King and our only path to salvation. Those fundamental values and teachings, and the lifestyle and values they instill in the people hearing and living them, are the very things that keep America free. And practised by most Christian denominations, they are the vision of our founders in producing a people who do not need or want a large overbearing government telling them how to live. They govern themselves.

Jim, most of the time Jeff carries a very civil tone; and, being a convert to Mormonism who still has Evangelical family members, Jeff appears to have had to "walk a fine line" in trying to be "reconciling" as much as possible to stave off relational tension and possibly even conflict.

Jeff's the kind of Mormon you want as your nextdoor neighbor.

But he's NOT the kind of guy who would do well as a "Paul Harvey" -- providing the rest of the story.

He tends to reduce the differences between Mormonism and Christianity.

And since a LOT of his comments are on political threads, that's good "common sense." You want people of similar values to coalesce 'cause if they're always focusing on the HUGE differences, then progress vs. other targets gets compromised.

Well, Jeff's the kind of Mormon who would be a pleasure to coalesce with at the local food bank or say as a fellow 'Scout leader.

But, again, what's that rest of the story missing in his response?

Well, I could go into a LOT of detail on that...but here's the key part:

Mormons have spent $millions of dollars and over a million missionaries to go around the world to slander worldwide Christianity as "apostates" -- essentially the very same teaching Islam has about Christianity (they call us "infidels").

One of the top Mormon missionary lessons is to stress the so-called "universal apostasy." (That's about US as Christians)

Additionally, in the Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price, the founding "vision" Joseph Smith had with two unnamed entities is elaborated...and on vv. 18-19 we are referenced as "corrupt" (100% of our professing believers), and that our creeds are 100% an "abomination." Smith used the word "ALL" there, too.

If Joseph Smith labels 100% of our creeds as an "abomination," and if Mormons like Jeff Head tithe to reprint that slander, and translate that slander, then no wonder we are at odds...IOW, we didn't start this verbal conflict...the Mormons did...and continue it with their accusations of Christians and Christianity.

So, as this pertains to this thread's comments...you can see that his language of reconciliation is just a "cover"... that "hides" what's underneath the surface...and it's not simply a given Mormon leader's "opinion" about Christians/Christianity...but Lds "scripture" -- from which true-believing Mormons can't readily depart...

Mormons tend to smile...be friendly...but thru that smile, underneath, for us as Christians, it's "you are an 'apostate'...your creeds are 100% putrid."

Now there IS a Mormon movement led by John Dehlin who believes that Mormonism Is NOT "the only true church."

That movement is growing, but is yet to be 'representative' of Mormonism.

[Elsie]

There’s nothing quite like the arrogance of the religiously pure...you know, those who can tell us all whom God has condemned for all eternity.

Yup!!

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

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 Orson Pratt proclaimed:

 

 "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

 

[Elsie]

You appear to actually know very little about what MORMONism teaches.

[Elsie]

Better look up “faith” in the dictionary.

Does that come before NEVER?

[Jim Robinson]

In other words, “Lying for the Lord” seems to be the official LDS mantra. And Romney uses it to the max. There is no Christian conservative principle that Romney has not lied about from every side. Lying is indelibly burned into his soul. It’s his first and last response to every question.

Mr. Etch-a-sketch knows no other way.

[Elsie]

That song, Jeff, won't do them a BIT of good!

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In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)     http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

[colorcountry]

Did you lie when you claimed to “not know” who Robert Millet is? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Did you go on an LDS mission? What type of training do missionaries receive? You certainly know that - I'm sure you have had at least one child serve an LDS mission. THE MTC (missionary Training Center). Surely the LDS Church is aware of what is being taught to its missionaries.

Robert Millet gave this address to Mormon missionaries in training. Are you trying to distance the LDS Church from the training it gives its missionaries. Or are you that nominal of a Mormon that you just don't know?

[Elsie]

I'll bet, Jeff, that they sing THIS one, too. Right?

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(click)

Praise to the Man!

 

 

 

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

[ansel12]

if you never said anything positive about Romney in the run-up to the 2008 election, after Thompson dropped out and all of us were hoping to keep Mccain from winning (which is what I said I recollected you doing), then I am mistaken and apologize

IF? Which is STILL WHAT YOU RECOLLECT? Pretty slick there with that mock apology, very Mormon/Clinton like.

[Elsie]

We do not have "another" Bible.

But; we DO have other 'scripture'!

--MormonDude(The blessings found just in our Book of Abraham are almost indescribable!)

[Elsie]

We do have the Book of Mormon which we posit to be an ancient record from the America's and God's dealing with a break off group of the House of Israel who were guided to these shores about 600 BC as a part of the scattering of Israel spoken of in the Old Testament.

Hope that helps you undertsand our position on those scriptures.

Just READING portions of that book brings VAST amounts of 'understanding' to the table!

 

MORMON

Chapter 6

The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.

1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired. 

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

16 And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

17 O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!

18 Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.

19 O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!

20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.

21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

22 O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.

---

 

 

Mormon 8:2
And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

[Elsie]

We do have the Book of Mormon which we posit to be an ancient record from the America's....

Grteat stories abound about the miracles involved with 'translating' that book...

"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."

---Joseph Knight's journal.

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"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.

(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),

"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

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"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,

as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,

and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

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In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."

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"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"

reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881

in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

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In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:

 

 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,

Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12

June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)

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Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:

 

"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"

("A New Witness for Christ in America,"

Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)

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"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."

---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.

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[Elsie]

It is a bunch of spoiled brats who refuse to acknowledge the grave danger the US is in.

It is a bunch of religious illiterates who refuse to acknowledge the grave danger that MORMONism affords the human soul.