Posted on 05/10/2007 12:28:17 PM PDT by Gamecock
So am I a “bad Catholic”? ;-)
I know I am probably wasting my time making this point, but the CCC makes it clear that Muslims CLAIM to worship the same God. It does not claim that the Muslim concept of God is correct.
For ANYONE to deny that Muslims CLAIM to worship the God of Abraham would be lunacy. Having said that, however, that does not mean that Muslims worship the God of Abraham with the correct understanding of who He is.
The CCC #841 says “these ****PROFESS**** to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330
Lumen Gentium, 16: “In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, ****PROFESSING**** to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”
Nostra Aetate 3: “3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, **** WITH WHOM THE FAITH OF ISLAM TAKES PLEASURE IN LINKING ITSELF **** , submitted to God. Though ****THEY DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS GOD****, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.”
It seems pretty clear to me that the council fathers and the CCC authors and editors are saying that Muslims CLAIM to have the faith of Abraham and outwardly worship the God of Abraham. Clearly, however, they also acknowledge that Muslims DO NOT WORSHIP the same God as shown by the reference to Muslim denial of Christ’s divinity.
our rocor priest mentioned in a sermon that we should not be confused by protestants claiming to worship the same God. they don’t.
Well, we certainly don't worship the same Mary! [ducks and runs]...
The “Love Feast” that Gamecock pointed out is a figment of Bennett’s imagination. Look at the Pope’s comments at Regensburg concerning Islam.
well. if you’re worshipping Mary, tht’s a whole nother heresey i haven’t heard of.
Got that right!
Aw, c'mon...What a cop out...
According to you guys, your pope is the Theologian's Theologian...He's the Vicar of Christ, Christ on Earth...How could he make a mistake and how can a good Catholic disagree with him???
He's led by the Holy Spirit...He's the magisterium...He's the head of all religions of the world...And you disagree with him as to the nature of God???
Well, I doubt that I would declare this “well put”. It sounds like a bunch of gobblygook nonsense to me.
If the Catholic Church feels the Muslims are not worshiping the ONE true God, why don’t they simply come out and say so. The real answer (understandably) is that the Pope would have hoards of Muslims storming Rome. No matter how much one tries to slice and dice what Rome is saying these days about Muslims, it is clear that they have sought the path of appeasement rather than confront people with the truth of the gospel.
You wrote:
“Well, I doubt that I would declare this “well put”. It sounds like a bunch of gobblygook nonsense to me.”
LOL! So say you. Care to prove how it is such?
“If the Catholic Church feels the Muslims are not worshiping the ONE true God, why don’t they simply come out and say so.”
1) They did. Remember the Church clearly said Muslims DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS DIVINE.
2) To say it as you wanted it simply had no place in the kind of documents that LG and NA were. Notice, the whole document is about what religions share more than what separates them. It is about hope in finding common ground to begin discussions. I think this was largely pie-in-the-sky thinking from the council fathers in the early (and very hopeful) 1960’s, but it does not deny that the Muslims deny Christ.
“The real answer (understandably) is that the Pope would have hoards of Muslims storming Rome. No matter how much one tries to slice and dice what Rome is saying these days about Muslims, it is clear that they have sought the path of appeasement rather than confront people with the truth of the gospel.”
Utter nonsense. Think for once in your life. What Muslim hordes threatened Rome in 1964 or 1965? Seriously, get a clue.
That's pretty clear.
"along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind"
So is that.
"They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,"
So is that.
"they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting"
That's pretty clear also. In order to deny that these documents state that Muslims worship the same God Catholics worship (even though the Muslim concept of God is deficient in certain respects), one has to deny what these documents quite explicitly state.
Clearly, however, they also acknowledge that Muslims DO NOT WORSHIP the same God as shown by the reference to Muslim denial of Christ’s divinity."
The documents' reference to the Muslim denial of Christ's divinity does not show that these documents "acknowledge that Muslims do not worship the same God" Catholics worship. That is a non sequitur, and makes the documents out to contradict what they state both explicitly and implicitly, as shown above. A deficient *concept* of God does not necessarily entail that the object of that concept [i.e. the being described by the concept] is other than the one true God.
-A8
Is that the official teaching of your church? Think we follow that *other* Jesus as well?
Fortunately Pope Benedict has a much better grasp of the situation. Besides, the authors deliberately confuse interfaith prayer with syncretism. (Incidentally, the authors also misuse the word ecumenism, apparently falsely believing it is synonymous with interfaith. Activities which are among different denominations within the same faith, Christianity, are ecumenical. Any papal statements on ecumenism implicitly exclude Islam.)
>> To quote a Catholic news organization, “Our Lady of Fatima is really Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Mohammed <<
No sources. Typical. I’ll flat out call the authors liars to their face on this one.
>> The Pope is not a first among equals as a bishop. Frankly, he is not even a bishop in the biblical sense of the term. Karol Wojtyla is the head of a totalitarian hierarchy. Its position as the restored Holy Roman Empire is depicted in the Bible. <<
The author’s agenda comes forth...
>> He has his own secular government of Vatican City and more property worldwide than any other person on the planet. <<
Vatican holdings are quite minimal. Dioceses are legally separate entities.
>> If contemporary Evangelical leaders and their disciples discount and ignore these utterly basic prophetic and historical facts, they must understand they are placing themselves outside the stream of historic biblical Christianity. <<
I suggest that protestant churches clean their own houses. 80% of Presbyterians in America belong to the PCUSA, the most notoriously anti-everything-good-and-holy church in America.
>> If Evangelicals to continue to fraternize with Rome, it will mark a major, irrevocable betrayal of the Gospel testimony toward the poor deluded adherents of Romanism and leave them languishing in the claws of the devil. <<
Didn’t “Rome as the Great Apostasy” lose all its cache about 500 years ago? After all, Protestantism’s historical revisionism relies on the assertion that there were non-Romans who were faithful Christians throughout history. But these assertions are so sweeping, that all but the ancient Gnostics and the Albi pretty much stand condemned by it. And I don’t think that modern Protestants want to assert that the Albi were closer to authentic Christianity then, say, Augustine.
You remember your hero, Augustine, don’t you, Gamecock? That brilliant and passionate defender of Roman supremacy you love to quote?
what sort of church do u go to?
Shame on you. Exactly which Mary *do* you worship, anyway?
vla-Care to prove how it is such?
Let me know the next time the Pope goes out without his "Popemobile".
Well, let's hope Catholics won't buy this even if it was from the Pope.
That’s not funny. (chuckle)
Yes, we shouldn’t hesitate to confidently assert such authors are simply liars. All too often, Catholics do try to enter into dialog with servants of the devil, whether they are Muslims or Calvinists.
What’s amazing is that folks will continue to cite such bold-faced liars, without the slightest qualms that they are spreading lies. It seems that they rationalize that they disagree with Catholic apologists, so that makes Catholic apologists liars in their eyes, but the authors know that they are stating outright lies, not merely contestable conclusions.
Apparently, God’s word isn’t sufficient for these liars. They have to add lies on top of it, and then they presume that anyone who disagrees with them is hellbound for “rejecting the truth.”
It seems that someone spilled the beans about Molach’s pleasure with Jello that has little marshmallows in it, blowing the whole cover off of our potluck cover story.
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