Catholic Analysis: Mariology is Biblical

Vivificat! - A Catholic Blog of Commentary and Opinion ^ | 27 December 2005 | Teófilo

[Teófilo]

Folks, my blogger colleague, Oswald Sobrino of Catholic Analysis, has written a good essay regarding "Mariology," that is, the theological study and liturgical recognition of the place of Mary, the Mother of the Lord, the Theotokos, in the economy of salvation. It is entitled Mariology is Biblical. Here's an extract:

One of the great stumbling blocks for our Protestant brethren who are on the verge of crossing the Tiber, i.e., entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, is the great attention paid to the Mother of Jesus by Catholics. This hesitation is understandable: Protestantism is a reaction against Catholicism, and one of the reactions has been, historically, to exile the Mother of Jesus from salvation history. In recent times, some Protestants have sought to correct this strange exile of the Mother of God by looking back to the writings of the Church Fathers and to the early ecumenical councils, especially the fifth century Council of Ephesus. Yet, even Catholics can have a hard time responding to the insistent Protestant plea that to venerate Mary is to somehow detract from the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

...

The crux of the matter is that Mary's extraordinary mediation as Mother of Jesus derives from and is included in the unique mediatorship of Christ himself. What we ask our Protestant brethren to consider prayerfully, and, yes, quite biblically, is that the mediatorship of Christ is inclusive and admits of and even insists upon our participation. If we participate, as Paul did, then certainly the one whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus termed the "Mother of God" or "God-bearer" in 431 A.D. does also. Interestingly, today, even some conservative evangelical Protestant scholars openly refer to Mary as "Mother of God" based on the significance they ascribe to the Council of Ephesus. They are discovering the riches of the faith preserved for them through the centuries preceding the Reformation by none other than the Catholic Church.

- I urge all of you to read the entire piece at Catholic Analysis.

[netmilsmom]

>> then I am going to be called an Anti-Catholic Troll and your do-gooder Troll squad will no doubt push the abuse button and ping the moderator and do all within your power to have me banned.<<

You can doubt that any in our Troll Hunting Group will hit an abuse button on you to your hearts content. We don't do that, we put exclaimation points on your posts and let them stand for what they are.

And again, the invitation stands to call me to any Catholic coming to a post aimed at Protestants to evangelize you. I may not be able to back your beliefs, but sure as I sit here I will defend your right not to be insulted for having them.

Go to this thread...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1547960/posts
They are wonderful and insightful. I read them sometimes too, but find another thread with a Catholic theme that has the Religion Mod setting the rules. It doesn't happen, which is just fine because we take care of it the best we can.
Here is the Catholic mirror...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1548166/posts
Note that a Religion mod is not quoted here. Again, we do what we can.

Not my tattling to Mom (or Mod) but pointing it out.

I'm not looking for an answer, so please don't consider yourself pinged. Just FYI.

[Buggman]

Given that this thread was an open challenge to the "Prots," it is hypocritical for you to complain about us showing up.

[Buggman]

Already answered. Yeshua's God-nature pre-existed Mary, because God is Eternal and unbegotten. Only Yeshua's Man-nature was born through Mary.

[Uri’el-2012]

fulfill prophesy

Sorry.
finger check fixed.

[Buggman]

Catholoic bashing, and Mary bashing within that, is the only persecution allowed.

Oh, please. Do a search on my screename and go back a few months. I've been "persecuted" plenty around here, by your rather broad use of the term. And if your definition of "persecution" is "any Biblical disagreement with Catholic doctrine," you are much too thin-skinned to make it as a Freeper. Have you ever seen the Creavo threads? Have you ever seen the GRPL vs. the Neeners threads?

It is the Catholics who resort to ad-hominems ("Catholic basher! Troll!"), not the Protestants. There are also far more Catholic threads "bashing" Protestant beliefs than vice-versa--and when you see us, it's nearly always in response to such a thread.

In short, get off your cross, and if you can't stand the heat, please vacate the kitchen. FR is an equal-opportunity offender, where everyone has a right to have their beliefs challenged.

[Pyro7480]

Only Yeshua's Man-nature was born through Mary.

Then you deny the Incarnation itself. The Word was made flesh.

[Pyro7480]

FR is an equal-opportunity offender, where everyone has a right to have their beliefs challenged.

BS. If you said Judaism is a false religion, there would be hell to pay.

[Buggman]

Personally, I have no problem with "mother of God" because I recognize that its adoptation goes to combating the Nestorian heresy.

Agreed, and if no further inference was made from the title, it wouldn't be a big deal.

[Buggman]

Catholoic bashing, and Mary bashing within that, is the only persecution allowed.

Oh, please. Do a search on my screename and go back a few months. I've been "persecuted" plenty around here, by your rather broad use of the term. And if your definition of "persecution" is "any Biblical disagreement with Catholic doctrine," you are much too thin-skinned to make it as a Freeper. Have you ever seen the Creavo threads? Have you ever seen the GRPL vs. the Neeners threads?

It is the Catholics who resort to ad-hominems ("Catholic basher! Troll!"), not the Protestants. There are also far more Catholic threads "bashing" Protestant beliefs than vice-versa--and when you see us, it's nearly always in response to such a thread.

In short, get off your cross, and if you can't stand the heat, please vacate the kitchen. FR is an equal-opportunity offender, where everyone has a right to have their beliefs challenged.

[Buggman]

No it isn't. There is exactly one passage that you can distinctly draw on--and then only if you take the rather poor Latin translation of the Greek.

Again, your attempts to read Mary into the Ark are pure eisegesis (reading one's preconceptions into Scripture), not exegesis (reading from the Scripture). But that was the subject of another thread, and I'm not going to repeat the whole debate here.

Indeed, the most telling thing of all is how little Scripture mentions Mary. If the Apostles venerated her half as much as the modern Catholic does, they could hardly have helped speaking of her in their every epistle, since they would have to explain her not only to the Greek mind, but most especially to the Hebrew, which would flee from Marian-veneration as pagan worship as a matter of pure reflex. Funny that neither Matthew, nor Hebrews, nor James, all written distinctly to the Jews, establishes such a practice--nor does any Gospel or epistle at all!

[Buggman]

Thank you for proving my point as to why there can be no true fellowship between Rome and Biblical Christians.

[Buggman]

So you think that the Eternal God did not exist before Mary did?

[Buggman]

Yet Catholics can bash Protestants all day long--and still make the claim that only Catholics get "persecuted" here with a straight face.

[Pyro7480]

Yet Catholics can bash Protestants all day long--and still make the claim that only Catholics get "persecuted" here with a straight face.

There's a huge difference between name-calling - which is something some Catholics on here are guilty of - and stating your belief that Catholics are idolaters, which reeks of the anti-Catholic propaganda which has been preached by Protestants since the dawn of Martin Luther.

[Pyro7480]

You can't seem to comprehend that Mary has a threefold relationship with the Trinity - Daughter/Creature, Mother, and Spouse.

[annalex]

Mary is mother of the Second person of the Trinity Jesus Christ. She is not a mother only of His human nature but of His whole eternal person. Likewise she is not directly the mother of any other person of the Holy Trinity, the Father or the Holy Ghost. Christ's whole person is God, just like the Father is God and the Holy Ghost is God. God is one (*). Mary is the mother of God.

Now, various modern sects don't understand that, since obviously the Eternal Son as well as the entire Holy Trinity pre-existed Mary. For guidance they should read the fathers of the Church and pray. St. John the Damascene is a good start, AN EXACT EXPOSITION OF THE ORTHODOX FAITH, BOOK I.

The views contrary to the Ephesian Canons are anathema not because I in my arrogance declare them such, but because, for over a millenium and a half, which is virtually since as soon as they were formulated, they have been. It is a historical fact. The Christian way to deal with anathemized views, should you have them, is to drop them, and then struggle for explanations, and the explanation will come, God willing.

---

(*) Interestingly, if Mary is construed to be the mother of the Second person but not mother of God, then that would put her in a singular relation with the Second Person compared to the other Persons. Then she would be a fourth person of God, which is probably far from the neo-nestorians' intention.

[netmilsmom]

>>Yet Catholics can bash Protestants all day long--and still make the claim that only Catholics get "persecuted" here with a straight face.<<

I have to ask you to show a reference where a Catholic STARTED bashing Protestant beliefs, before any reference to how wrong we are. Scripture or not.

As I said, I may not be able to defend your beliefs but I will defend your right NOT to be insulted for having them.

My husband is searching. A lifelong Protestant, he is looking at what we have to offer. The posted article states clearly that it is for people like him. You are strong in your relationship with Christ. Why do you care?

[Buggman]

Yes, and the difference is that the former is sheer ad-hominem, and the latter is the result of simply comparing that Catholics openly do to what the Scripture says about the practice. If pointing out the obvious is "propaganda" in your world, then you have truly lost the argument.

[Buggman]

What you fail to understand is that Mary is not the mother of the Trinity.

[Pyro7480]

You put words in my mouth. The Trinity is undivided and uncreated. Jesus is the Second Person. He is true God and true man. To say Mary is only the Mother of His human "part" is to deny that the Word made Flesh. Words have consequences.