Intelligent Design case decided - Dover, Pennsylvania, School Board loses [Fox News Alert]

Fox News | 12/20/05

[snarks_when_bored]

Fox News alert a few minutes ago says the Dover School Board lost their bid to have Intelligent Design introduced into high school biology classes. The federal judge ruled that their case was based on the premise that Darwin's Theory of Evolution was incompatible with religion, and that this premise is false.

[metmom]

I remember that controversy and the meltdown that ensued when it was proposed. I think that the same thing is happening in the ID debate now. It should be interesting to see where this ends up some years down the road.

[xzins]

That sounds like nobody paid taxes, least of all John Q. Citizen.

[xzins]

It did not establish a religion....was anyone required to pay taxes to support the Catholic Church, for example, after that statement was placed in those books? Did anyone lose their job in the school district because they refused to join the Catholic Church?

Did anyone announce that the Catholic Church (or some other) was the official church of Dover, PA and you'd better attend it or you were toast?

[xzins]

So, if I'm a city councilman, and I'm pleased that we have a creche in the Christmas display this year because it aligns with my religion, then I've just established a religion?

Just because a school board member is happy about a disclaimer because it has some personally felt alignment with his religion does not mean that there has been an establishment of a religion.

England had an established religion in the days of the Revolution and the writing of the Constitution. So did Virginia. They were the same -- the Anglican Church.

They had to pay taxes that went to that church, and they were required to be a part of that church to hold public office, and there were other perks for being a member and penalties for not being a member.

What denomination are they now required to be a part of in Dover, PA?

[jwalsh07]

More than one court decision but the important one was in the SCOTUS in Torasco. It has never been overturned and thus stare decisis rules the day. You can scoff at it or not but it is currently the "law of the land". And if you don't belive me you can ask the "rulers of the land" the SCOTUS.

Live by the courts, die by the courts.

Another ruling you might be interested in is a recent one by the Ninth Circuit which said in essence that once school children enter the door of a public school parental rights are gone, vanished, poof. In other words according to the Ninth Circuit morons the Dover parents had no business in court at all.

Once again, live by the oligarchy, suffer the oligrachy.

[Coyoteman]

Thanks, I'll go back and research Torasco just in case I missed something. I will also cross-check the case I was referring to just to make sure I am remembering correctly.

In the meantime, Merry Christmas!

[jwalsh07]

Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.

God bless you all.

Adios!

[xzins]

Your 2326 is an outstanding post.

In this case the Dover students who do not believe in evolution are being forced to reject their deeply held religious views or leave the school. That looks pretty close to an infringment of the free exercise of their religion

And even if they do leave, they're forced to still pay taxes to the school teaching what they reject, AND they have to pay for the new school their child attends.

The courts have ruled that atheism is a religion. I do not see how this is NOT closer to an establishment of religion than Dover's saying that there are alternative understandings of origins and change.

[js1138]

They could decide simply not to take biology.

[xzins]

Is there any freeper who really believes that it is NECESSARY for me to pay taxes to the public school system if I choose to send my kid to a school more in keeping with my beliefs.

What is wrong with there being some calculation to restore that money to me, so I can use it in the education of my own child? (Yes, yes...I know...bigger checks will go to those who pay more taxes....Tax break for the rich. Tough. Live with it. The rich do pay more taxes. :>)

[xzins]

They could decide simply not to take biology.

That's a great idea if the state would let them opt out of any classes that proselytize evolution. Parents would find it easier to combine to supplement just one home-schooled class.

[Dimensio]

And even if they do leave, they're forced to still pay taxes to the school teaching what they reject, AND they have to pay for the new school their child attends.

If someone claims to follow a religion that says that the holocaust never happened, are their religious beliefs infringed by an accurate teaching of history?

The courts have ruled that atheism is a religion.

Reference?

I do not see how this is NOT closer to an establishment of religion

Even if I accepted that atheism is a relgion, I don't see how this would be an establishment of atheism. Only complete morons claim that evolution is atheism.

[Dimensio]

Just FYI, from what I've researched the "secular humanism ruled a religion" inference from Torcaso v. Watkins comes from a bit of dicta from Justice Hugo Black who wrote "Among the religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others."

The problem is that dicta isn't actually part of the offical ruling and doesn't really carry any legal weight.

[lonestar67]

I actually think that it might be useful to term the misinterpretation of the establishment clause on its head.

Argue that Darwin and other evolutionists are Creationists or in some way religious. The kind of cross examination of Behe in Dover is a great example of where the simple admission that someone is a Christian proves they have an establishment agenda. That is one of the glaring weaknesses of the Dover decision.

Find some evolutionists to admit on the stand that they are Christians and arguably that is an establishment violation.

Something must be done to expose the presently backward interpretation of the establishment clause.

[xzins]

Only complete morons claim that evolution is atheism.

Only complete morons claim that ID is Christianity.

I don't really care if someone wants to teach alternative history in their private school. All I care about is that they not have to double pay by having to pay taxes to that which they are not utilizing.

[metmom]

Probably only necessary if you want to avoid property tax issues and legal recourse; like all the other parents who homeschool or send their kids to private schools. Those people aren't given a tax break or reimbursement. Any property owner has to pay school taxes even if they have no kids in the public school system. I don't have a problem with restoring money to the parent who homeschools or private schools but many people do. The reason for that is that somewhat twisted reasoning that if you get a tax break, that is equivalent to receiving subsidies from the government. The "logic" (and I use the term loosely) is that a tax break is the same as receiving money. That then makes you subject to federal regulations governing government supported schools. Then some people will try to use that as a wedge to then be able to control what you're teaching.

What you're proposing sounds suspiciously like the voucher system. Go for it.

[Dimensio]

Only complete morons claim that ID is Christianity.

"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools." -- Philip E. Johnson

And then there was Pat Robertson's outburst regarding the voters of Dover turning their backs on God by kicking out a school board that supported ID. Not to mention the FReepers here who fully agreed with him.

I agree that ID can be presented in a way that isn't Christian in nature (though it still won't be science), but thus far those pushing ID have made it abundantly clear that they're just trying to throw out a smokescreen to hide the underlying religious motives.

Now, care to explain how atheism is being endorsed?

[Dimensio]

The kind of cross examination of Behe in Dover is a great example of where the simple admission that someone is a Christian proves they have an establishment agenda.

Uh, no, Behe didn't simply admit to being a Christian. Behe admitted that he belives the "designer" of Intelligent Design to be the Christian God.

[xzins]

Islam actually aligns with Christianity at more points than does ID.

Does that mean that Islam is Christianity?

[Dimensio]

Islam actually aligns with Christianity at more points than does ID.

Please explain this assertion.

Does that mean that Islam is Christianity?

No.