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To: Junior
By finding fossils out of place -- a fossil rabbit in the pre-Cambrian, for example.

On the contrary. Finding fossils out of place would better serve as evidence for those who adhere to no intelligent design. Adherents of intelligent design would expect to find order in the fossil record from smaller to larger; more waterbound creatures up to those that need air. And so the fossil record testifies.

The fossil record also seems to indicate the Law of Gravity was present and active when it was laid down, just as it is today. Smaller creatures sifted downward with more alacrity than the big critters. I would suspect, if the whole world were immersed in water today the same thing would happen. You would be a fossil on top, and your so called ancestor would be below. Would you predict any differently? If so, why?

Design is a good thing. Especially when it is intelligent and used to good purpose.

975 posted on 12/01/2004 6:17:54 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
On the contrary.

Ahem. I beg to differ. The fossil sequence is a cornerstone of evolutionary theory.

Finding fossils out of place would better serve as evidence for those who adhere to no intelligent design.

Actually not. If things happen purely by nature, one would expect a specific sequence. If one posits everything created by an "intelligence," that intelligence could have done it in any fashion he or she wanted, without regard to any particular sequence.

Adherents of intelligent design would expect to find order in the fossil record from smaller to larger; more waterbound creatures up to those that need air.

Why? An exterior intelligence can do anything in any order he or she wished. There would not have to be any sort of sequence.

And so the fossil record testifies.

As you can see, the fossil record actually supports a naturalistic sequence.

978 posted on 12/01/2004 6:23:32 PM PST by Junior (FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC)
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To: Fester Chugabrew; Junior; PatrickHenry
The fossil record also seems to indicate the Law of Gravity was present and active when it was laid down, just as it is today. Smaller creatures sifted downward with more alacrity than the big critters.

ROFL! You obviously know as little about "sifting" as you do about the fossil record.

First of all, small things in water sink MORE SLOWLY than large things. Very small things -- such as the size of the microfossils in the lowest part of the fossil record -- sink the slowest of all, and micron-scale particles take WEEKS to settle only a hundred meters in the best case scenario, which is PERFECTLY STILL water. Any turbulence in the water will tend to lift the smaller particles and keep them suspended, like silt in a moving river.

So perhaps you could explain why the *lowest* strata contain nothing but the *smallest* microfossils, why the average fossil size roughly goes UP higher in the fossil strata, why tiny fossils are so often found in coarse sediments and large fossils are so often found in *fine* sediments, why coarse sediments are often found INTERLAYERED with fine sediments, why bouyant ammonites are found only in *intermediate* layers in the strata, why most fossil-bearing strata contain fossils of various sizes and shapes, why some species are found across a wide range of strata, while others are found only in thin layers within those ranges...

I'm sorry, but the creationists' fantasy of "hydrological sorting" is falsified by even a cursory glance at the ACTUAL fossil record.

See for example The Geologic Column and its Implications for the Flood , by a former creationist. He graduated from a creationist school, but after working out int he field, he learned that most of what he had been taught by his creationist teachers was a lie.

I would suspect, if the whole world were immersed in water today the same thing would happen. You would be a fossil on top, and your so called ancestor would be below.

You would suspect wrongly.

Would you predict any differently? If so, why?

Absolutely. See above, especially the article in the link. A worldwide flood would jumble all life forms and sediments, and what minimal "sorting" would occur (most would be overriden by the enormous turbulence, acting like a giant blender) would cause the largest and coarsest debris to settle *first*, followed by the smaller debris, etc., etc., with the very finest particles being deposited over a LONG period of time as a thick layer atop all the rest.

It would result in *nothing* like what is actually found in the fossil record. Have you ever seen a global flood produce ice beds with 40,000 annual layers? Have you ever seen a global flood that wouldn't leave large amounts of terrestrial debris on the sea floors? Have you ever seen a flood that would "sort" all dinosaur remains under all elephant remains? Have you ever seen a flood deposit layered fossil forests? Have you ever seen a flood deposite layers of salt? Have you ever seen a flood deposit thousands of meters of limestone in a short period of time, gathering such unbelievably vast amounts of microscope sea life from *where*, exactly? Have you ever seen a flood that could produce 5 x 1022 grams of limestone without boiling all the oceans of the Earth (and poaching Noah and his family) from the exothermic reaction which forms calcite?

And that's just the tip of the geologic iceberg. For just one example (out of COUNTLESS) why a global flood doesn't make any sense as an explanation for the geological record (and check the link I gave for many more from the countless examples), here's a post I wrote in response to "Answers in Genesis" ludicrous claims about how the Grand Canyon formations could have been laid down by a single global flood:

Your link discusses two points of argument: 1. "Those aren't surface animal tracks, those are amphibian tracks, dangit", and 2. "Those aren't sand dunes, those are underwater sand piles." The reason they want to argue for underwater processes instead of in-air processes is, as they freely admit, because this would cause a major problem for any Flood scenario. But their own attempted explanations leave a lot to be desired.

Let's examine each of them and see how well they hold up:

1. The Coconino sandstone layer of the Grand Canyon strata unmistakably shows animal tracks across its (many) surfaces. And yet, the creationist version of the the Grand Canyon story maintains that the thousands of feet of layers were laid down almost instantaneously (no more than a single year total, actually much less according to their beliefs about what the Flood did when).

So to "explain" (or "explain away") the animal tracks, they suggest that the sands were a) laid down underwater by the churning Flood waters, b) the animal tracks were made by aquatic amphibians running for their lives across the sea floor.

This fails on almost every level. First, there are many lines of evidence clearly pointing to a wind-blown sand dune origin for these sands, including fossilized raindrop impressions. You just don't see many raindrops under the ocean...

Second, the mighty straining to write off one kind of animal track as amphibious instead of reptilian, besides being contrary to the evidence, very conspicuously fails to even attempt to address the insect and mammal tracks which are also present in the sands. Last time I checked, there weren't a lot of spiders, scorpions, or mammals trotting around on the sea floor.

Spider track (along bottom), raindrop impressions, and piece of bark:

Bark floats -- what's it doing lying flat on the "bottom of the ocean" on top of several cubic miles of sand that has just washed into place (according to AiG) next to some raindrop impressions and the tracks of, um, an aquatic spider?

Scorpion tracks (note the characteristic tail-dragging):

There are also animal burrows preserved in the sands. Pretty amazing for animals to manage to burrow into sand as 10,000 cubic miles of it are being violently water-transported 2-300 miles through the ocean in just a few days, eh? (These are AiG's OWN FIGURES).

They also say that this happened at least 300 feet under the surface of the water, a considerable period of time after the Flood allegedly started. Just how many amphibians do they think would be left alive at that point to make countless tracks along the sea floor 300 feet underwater after all that titanic churning of rock and wave?

2. AiG claims that rather than being sand dunes accumulated over millions of years, the Coconino sandstone layer of the Grand Canyon was, as mentioned in the previous paragraph, violently shifted several hundred miles by "flood action" in incredible volumes and dumped over 200,000 square miles in "a matter of days".

There are, shall we say, several little problems with this.

The first is that such a massive "move and dump" would leave the "internal" structure of the sandstone just an amorphous pile of well-mixed sand. But that's not what we see. Instead, it's made up of many, many layers of overlapping dunes and wavy horizons:

Second, the sandstone is layered:

Note that this slab consists of two thin layers of sandstone, and must have been lifted off yet another layer since the spider tracks are a "cast" of the underlying tracks (they bump "out" instead of "in"). How exactly is the "10,000 cubic miles dumped in just days" scenario going to explain how multiple distinct thin layers of sand were nicely stacked?

Worse, animal tracks occur BETWEEN layers at various depths. AiG wrote their web page in a way to give the impression that animal tracks only occur on the *top* of the thick layer of sand, as if it was dumped there, and then animals went skittering across the top of it. That is not the case, but they sure seem to believe it themselves when they write of "catastrophic deposition of the sand by deep fast-moving water in a matter of days" followed by "in its waning stages, build huge sand waves in deep water". This begs the question, how exactly did those spiders and such manage to stroll across the various underlying surfaces of the sand as more was being "catastrophically deposited" on top? And how did *any* animal tracks (at any level) survive what AiG calls the building of "huge sand waves in deep water"? It seems that AiG would also expect to find clean animal tracks inside the remains of a massive mudslide which had been subsequently bulldozed -- from animals which made them during the mudslide itself and/or bulldozing. Color me skeptical.

Finally, the whole exercise is a graphic example of one of "scientific creationism's" favorite tactics: "resolving" one issue by proposing ad hoc scenarios that make NO SENSE in even their own larger picture. But we weren't supposed to notice that...

For example, they've tried to explain *ONE* layer in the Grand Canyon by proposing massive currents bringing in 10,000 cubic miles of sand, then "waning" to the point where it could appropriately make wavy shapes on the deposited sand. Okay, fine, so they propose that the flood waters had "waned" once the sand was deposited and then it was time to make pretty swirls on top. That's nice. THEN WHERE IN THE HELL DID THE SIX HUNDRED FEET OF ADDITIONAL ROCK OVER IT COME FROM?

See the layer marked "CS"? That's the Coconino Sandstone. See the enormous layers marked TF (Toroweap Formation), KFf (Kaibab Formation - Fossil Mountain Member), and KFh (Kaibab Formation - Harrisburg Member)? That's 600 additional feet of rock on top of the Coconino. AiG sort of "forgot" to explain how *those* ended up on top of the sand after the Flood waters had "waned".

Nor do they even acknowledge, much less explain, the 2500+ feet of rock layers *under* the Coconino sandstone, along with all their (varying) fossils, tracks, compositions, and histories.


1,039 posted on 12/01/2004 10:53:54 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Fester Chugabrew

Okay, so you've shown how the fossil record can be used to support design. Big deal. Everything supports design. There's no observation that would serve to falsify it. If I am wrong, then please provide such an observation.


1,063 posted on 12/02/2004 6:04:24 AM PST by stremba
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Smaller creatures sifted downward with more alacrity than the big critters.

Your theory fails the sanity check.

1,109 posted on 12/02/2004 8:25:41 AM PST by donh
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