Exactly my point. The South didn't allow the Congress to prescribe the general laws that would've proved the South's secession. If the Southern legislators would've went to the Congress and said they intended to secede and needed to enact the general laws to prove that secession, then there would not have been the messy separation if the Congress would've went along with it.
What prescribed procedures, if any, were not followed? An assertion that the failing of the secessionist states was procedural appears to concede that secession was lawful and constitutional.
It was not lawful because they didn't allow the Congress to prescribe the manner to prove it in accordance with Article IV, Section 1.
Were secession unlawful or unconstititutional, there could be no proper constitutional procedure.
I've never said secession was illegal. The manner in which the South seceded was illegal though. In any case, they started the war anyway, so they technically weren't taken to war because of secession, but because of an attack against the United States.
I accept your concession that the procedures that you said were not followed, in fact, did not exist.
I've never said secession was illegal.
[#3Fan] I accept your concession that there was nothing inherently illegal about an act of secession.
[#3Fan] The manner in which the South seceded was illegal though.
Something is not illegal unless there is a law against it. You have just conceded such law did not exist.
[#3Fan] In any case, they started the war anyway, so they technically weren't taken to war because of secession, but because of an attack against the United States.
Actually, orders to violate the existing armistice were issued within 8 days of Lincoln's inauguration.
March 12, 1861
To Captain I. Vogdes
First Artillery, U.S. Army
[in USS Brooklyn]
"At the first opportunity, you will land your company, reinforce Fort Pickens, and hold the same till further orders, etc."
[This order was received by Capt. Vogdes on March 31, 1861]
U. S. TRANSPORT ATLANTIC,
[New York,] April 6, 1861 -- 2k p. m.Hon. WM. H. SEWARD, Secretary of State:
DEAR SIR: By great exertions, within less than six days from the time the subject was broached in the office of the President, a war steamer sails from this port; and the Atlantic, built under contract to be at the service of the United States in case of war, will follow this afternoon with 500 troops, of which one company is sappers and miners, one a mounted battery. The Illinois will follow on Monday with the stores which the Atlantic could not hold.
While the mere throwing of a few men into Fort Pickens may seem a small operation, the opening of a campaign is a great one.
Unless this movement is supported by ample supplies and followed up by the Navy it will be a failure. This is the beginning of the war which every statesman and soldier has foreseen since the passage of the South Carolina ordinance of secession. You will find the Army and the Navy clogged at the head with men, excellent patriotic men, men who were soldiers and sailors forty years ago, but who now merely keep active men out of the places in which they could serve the country.
If you call out volunteers you have no general to command. The general born, not made, is yet to be found who is to govern the great army which is to save the country, if saved it can be. Colonel Keyes has shown intelligence, zeal, activity, and I look for a high future for him.
England took six months to get a soldier to the Crimea. We were from May to September in getting General Taylor before Monterey. Let us be supported; we go to serve our country, and our country should not neglect us or leave us to be strangled in tape, however red.
Respectfully,
M. C. MEIGS.
By your logic the Founders' should've gone to the Parliament for approval before seceeding from Britain in 1776. That's totally moronic! You cut the cord and form your own government. Where in this following selection of the Declaration of Independence does it say "seek approval first"?
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Uhhhhhhhhhh, I don't see it anywhere that one must ask permission first. That would be like telling an opposing force "Okay, we'll attack you at such and such a time". Talk about stupid.
As for the rest of your "We set men free speech" spare me the hyperbole. You guys were the aggressors and the reason the South fired on Sumter was that Lincoln sent a reinforcement force under the guise of supply. While I admit the firing on the Fort was a miscalculation on the Souths part, that damn war really didn't need to be fought.
If I was black? Well I'm not, but I'm of Irish descent so don't lay the sob story about slavery on me. My race has been oppressed by the English for 700 years. And while I don't condone slavery in any form, I condemn oppression of any type under any guise. And once again the war wasn't about slavery, that was a ploy used by Lincoln in 1863 when the war was going badly on the home front. It was about the right of secession.
Secession is only an "act" when it is actually done.
[#3Fan] "Prescribe" means that the Congress decides before to act is carried out.
Only the Constitution does not say that, it says this: U.S. Const, Art 4, Sec 1, Cl 2: "And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof."
The Congress may, prescribe, by general Laws.... Congress had not chosen to enact any such applicable general Law. It has still not enacted any such applicable general Law.
[#3Fan #198] The South didn't allow the Congress to prescribe the general laws that would've proved the South's secession.
Following this logic, that it is the power of the South that did not allow the U.S. Congress to act, I observe that the power of the South has now prevented the U.S. Congress from prescribing the manner of secession for over two centuries.
[#3Fan] It's easier to just read the Constitution. The Constitution says the the South should've let the Congress prescribe the rules.
It is good to read the Constitution. It is not good to rephrase it and say your rephrasing is the Constitution.
[#3Fan] It was our property, we could do as we wished. And since secession wasn't proven, there was no armistice because there was no Confederacy, legally.
The Armistice was entered into by the U.S. Government during the Buchanan administration with the authorities of the Sovereign State of Florida.
[#3Fan] There was no armistice because the Confederacy didn't exist. It's like when the police tell drug dealers to come to a building to claim money and then they get arrested. Since the drug dealers are unlawfully at large the agreement for the money doesn't exist.
That sounds more like the cop trying to explain why the drugs are missing from the evidence locker. If breaking the deal would mean a four-year war and 360,000 cops being killed, it is unlike any such deal as you described.
[#3Fan] Secession wasn't proved, so there was no Confederacy, and therefore no armistice. You don't make armistices with outlaws.
The official records of the United States Government establish that the deal was made.
O.R. Series 1, Vol. 1, Part 1, p. 355-6
WASHINGTON, January 29, 1861.
TO JAMES GLYNN, commanding the Macedonian; Captain W. S. WALKER, commanding the Brooklyn, and other naval officers in command; and Lieutenant ADAM J. SLEMMER, First Regiment Artillery, U. S. Army, commanding Fort Pickens, Pensacola, Fla.:
In consequence of the assurance received from Mr. Mallory in a telegram of yesterday to Messrs. Slidell, Hunter, and Bigler, with a request it should be laid before the President, that Fort Pickens would not be assaulted, and an offer of such an assurance to the same effect from Colonel Chase, for the purpose of avoiding a hostile collision, upon receiving satisfactory assurances from Mr. Mallory and Colonel Chase that Fort Pickens will not be attacked, you are instructed not to land the company on board the Brooklyn unless said fort shall be attacked or preparations shall be made for its attack. The provisions necessary for the supply of the fort you will land. The Brooklyn and other vessels of war on the station will remain, and you will exercise the utmost vigilance and be prepared at a moment's warning to land the company at Fort Pickens, and you and they will instantly repel an attack on the fort.
The President yesterday sent a special message to Congress commending the Virginia resolutions of compromise. The commissioners of different States are to meet here on Monday, the 4th February, and it is important that during their session a collision of arms should be avoided, unless an attack should be made or there should be preparation for such an attack. In either event the Brooklyn and the other vessels will act promptly.
Your right, and that of the other officers in command at Pensacola, freely to communicate with the Government by special messenger, and its right in the same manner to communicate with yourself and them, will remain intact as the basis on which the present instruction is given.
J. HOLT,
Secretary of War.
ISAAC TOUCEY,
Secretary of the Navy.
O.R. Series 1, Vol 1, Part 1, page 357-8
PENSACOLA HARBOR, FLA., February 7, 1861.
Colonel L. THOMAS, Assistant Adjutant-General, U. S. Army:
SIR: I have the honor to report that I arrived on this station yesterday in the U. S. steamer Brooklyn, with Company A, First Artillery. I met orders here which prevent the landing of my company or the reenforcement of the garrison of Fort Pickens at present. Yesterday I landed at Fort Pickens, assumed command of the forces on the station, inspected the defenses, and had a consultation with Lieutenant Sleemer. I am compelled to remain on board the Brooklyn for the present, and can, of course, only give general instructions to Lieutenant Slemmer. I am sorry to inform the Department that I found Fort Pickens in a very inefficient state of defense. At the time Lieutenant Slemmer removed his command to Fort Pickens there were only forty guns mounted in the fort. At present there are fifty-four in position. The accompanying sketch indicates the position and class of guns now in position; total, fifty-four of all kinds.
Lieutenant Slemmer has with him only forty-six enlisted men for duty, and thirty ordinary seamen from the yard at this station, and the latter are entirely untrained, insubordinate, and of but little use in case of attack. There are fifty-seven embrasures that are unprovided with cannon, and are only about seven feet from the bottom of the ditch, and at present but few of them have only the common wooden shutter, presenting only a slight obstacle to an enemy. There are only very imperfect means of barricading them. Such as they are, however, I have given orders to be immediately employed.
Lieutenant Slemmer has been obliged to employ his command in getting guns into position and in barricading the embrasures. He is obliged to keep one-half of his men under arms every night, and they are nearly all exhausted with fatigue. The guns and carriages and implements are all old, and nearly unserviceable. I have made a requisition direct on the Department for the necessary supply of guns, carriages, and ammunition. The supply of this last is very inadequate. There is no ammunition for the columbiads, no cartridge bags for them, nor flannel to make any. In fact, had it been the intention of the government to place the fort in the state to render its defense impossible, it could not have been done more efficiently that it has been done. The post is without any medical officer, and if it is intended to defend it there should be an Engineer officer sent at once to the station. I trust that the Department will immediately order that the supplies requested be sent. There are no bunks either for the hospital or for the troops, and but little bedding for the sick. I request a supply may be sent. There are plenty of provisions for the present, although I should like some desiccated vegetables and supplies for the officers. I would mention that all of the troops will be compelled to live in open casemages, and many of them will soon be on the sick-list.
The seceders have a considerable force in and about Pensacola; what number I am unable to say positively, but they are estimated at about 1,700 men. They are disorderly, and very unwilling to be controlled. Their leaders, from what I can learn, I believe are sincere in their intention to observe the armistice, but their ability to control the men under their command is very doubtful. They are engaged in erecting batteries, are making sand bags, &c. They have plenty of means of transportation their troops to Saint Rosa Island, and can attack the fort on all sides at once. At present there is not one trained man to a gun within the fort. Should the enemy decide to attack, it is exceedingly probable that he might succeed in penetrating into the fort before my company could be landed or any succor could arrive from the fleet. I should therefore urge upon the Department the necessity of the fleet taking up a position such as to prevent the landing of any forces within one and a half miles of the fort; this would give time to provide for the defense of the work and the landing of the troops from the fleet; otherwise we may have the mortification and disgrace of seeing the fort taken by a body of untrained troops under our very noses.
Should the armistice be broken, my company, all the marines, and as many sailors as may raise the garrison to four hundred men should be immediately landed. All of the advantages of the present armistice are entirely on the side of the seceders. I would therefore urge upon the Department the necessity of immediately re-enforcing the garrison. The two additional companies ordered to Forts Taylor and Jefferson are not immediately required for the defense of those works. In fact, in their present state, and with the forces now in them, they would be stronger than Fort Pickens will be when garrisoned with four hundred men. Captain Meigs kindly offered his services, if necessary, to assist in the defense of this place, and I request the Department that he may be ordered to repair to this place.
Lieutenant Slemmer has done all that it has been possible to do with the small force under his command. His resolution to defend his post at all hazards evinces the highest moral courage on his part, but at the same time I must state that with any amount of vigor on the part of the assaulters his defense would have been hopeless. His resolution has probably been the means of preserving Fort Pickens from the seceders.
Yours, &c.,
I. VOGDES,
Captain, First Artillery.
P. S.-I must not be understood as recommending any violation of the existing armistice, but the collection of an amount of troops on the station as may be necessary for the defense should anything occur to rupture the present armistice.
FORT PICKENS, FLA., February --, 1861.
Report of Captain Adams, U. S. Navy, senior officer present off Pensacola, transmitting communication from Captain Vogdes, U. S. Army, regarding cooperation for the protection of Fort Pickens.
[p. 109]
U.S. FRIGATE SABINE, Off Pensacola, April 1, 1861.
SIR: I have the honor to inclose a copy of a letter addressed to me by Captain Vogdes, U. S. Army, who is here in command of some
[p. 110]
troops sent out in January last to reenforce the garrison of Fort Pickens. I have declined to land the men as Captain Yogdes requests, as it would be in direct violation of the orders from the Navy Department under which I am acting.
The instructions from General Scott to Captain Vogdes are of old date (March 12) and may have been given without a full knowledge of the condition of affairs here. They would be no justification to me. Such a step is too important to be taken without the clearest orders from proper authority. It would most certainly be viewed as a hostile act, and would be resisted to the utmost. No one acquainted with the feelings of the military assembled under General Bragg can doubt that it would be considered not only a declaration but an act of war. It would be a serious thing to bring on by any precipitation a collision which may be entirely against the wishes of the Administration. At present both sides are faithfully observing the agreement entered into by the U. S. Government with Mr. Mallory and Colonel Chase. This agreement binds us not to reenforce Fort Pickens unless it shall be attacked or threatened. It binds them not to attack it unless we should attempt to reenforce it. I saw General Bragg on the 30th ultimo, who reassured me the conditions on their part should not be violated. While I can not take ou myself under such insufficient authority as General Scott’s order the fearful responsibility of an act which seems to render civil war inevitable, I am ready at all times to carry out whatever orders I may receive from the honorable Secretary of the Navy.
In conclusion, I beg you will please send me instructions as soon as possible, that I may be relieved from a painful embarrassment.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
H.A. ADAMS, Captain, Senior Officer Present.
Hon. Gideon WELLES, Secretary of the Navy, Washington, D.C.
[Enclosure.]
Lincoln to Congress, July 4, 1861:
The first return news from the order [nc- to Captain Adams near Fort Pickens] was received just one week before the fall of Fort Sumter. The news itself was, that the officer commanding the Sabine [nc- Captain Adams, USN), to which vessel the troops had been transferred from the Brooklyn, acting upon some quasi armistice of the late administration, (and of the existence of which, the present administration, up to the time the order was despatched, had only too vague and uncertain rumors, to fix attention) had refused to land the troops.
O.R. Series 1, Vol. 1, Part 1, Page 440-1
Message of the President of the United States, in answer to a resolution of the Senate requesting information concerning the quasi armistice alluded to in his message of the 4th instant.
JULY 31, 1861.- Read, ordered to lie on the table and be printed.
To the Senate of the United States:
In answer to the resolution of the Senate of the 19th instant, requesting information concerning the quasi armistice alluded to in my message of the 4th instant, I transmit a report from the Secretary of War.
ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
JULY 30, 1861.
NAVY DEPARTMENT,
July 29, 1861.
The Secretary of the Navy, to whom was referred the resolution of the Senate of the 19th instant, requesting the President of the United States to "communicate to the Senate (if not incompatible with the public interest) the character of the quasi armistice to which he refers in his message of the 4th instant, be reason of which the commander of the frigate Sabine refused to transfer the United States troops into Fort Pickens in obedience to his orders; by whom and when such armistice was entered into; and if any, and what, action has been taken by the Government in view of the disobedience of the order of the President aforesaid," has the honor to report that it is believed the communication of the information called for would not, at this time, comport with the public interest.
Respectfully submitted.
GIDEON WELLES.
The PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.