I accept your concession that the procedures that you said were not followed, in fact, did not exist.
I've never said secession was illegal.
[#3Fan] I accept your concession that there was nothing inherently illegal about an act of secession.
[#3Fan] The manner in which the South seceded was illegal though.
Something is not illegal unless there is a law against it. You have just conceded such law did not exist.
[#3Fan] In any case, they started the war anyway, so they technically weren't taken to war because of secession, but because of an attack against the United States.
Actually, orders to violate the existing armistice were issued within 8 days of Lincoln's inauguration.
March 12, 1861
To Captain I. Vogdes
First Artillery, U.S. Army
[in USS Brooklyn]
"At the first opportunity, you will land your company, reinforce Fort Pickens, and hold the same till further orders, etc."
[This order was received by Capt. Vogdes on March 31, 1861]
U. S. TRANSPORT ATLANTIC,
[New York,] April 6, 1861 -- 2k p. m.Hon. WM. H. SEWARD, Secretary of State:
DEAR SIR: By great exertions, within less than six days from the time the subject was broached in the office of the President, a war steamer sails from this port; and the Atlantic, built under contract to be at the service of the United States in case of war, will follow this afternoon with 500 troops, of which one company is sappers and miners, one a mounted battery. The Illinois will follow on Monday with the stores which the Atlantic could not hold.
While the mere throwing of a few men into Fort Pickens may seem a small operation, the opening of a campaign is a great one.
Unless this movement is supported by ample supplies and followed up by the Navy it will be a failure. This is the beginning of the war which every statesman and soldier has foreseen since the passage of the South Carolina ordinance of secession. You will find the Army and the Navy clogged at the head with men, excellent patriotic men, men who were soldiers and sailors forty years ago, but who now merely keep active men out of the places in which they could serve the country.
If you call out volunteers you have no general to command. The general born, not made, is yet to be found who is to govern the great army which is to save the country, if saved it can be. Colonel Keyes has shown intelligence, zeal, activity, and I look for a high future for him.
England took six months to get a soldier to the Crimea. We were from May to September in getting General Taylor before Monterey. Let us be supported; we go to serve our country, and our country should not neglect us or leave us to be strangled in tape, however red.
Respectfully,
M. C. MEIGS.
Yes they did exist. The first step was to allow the Congress to prescribe the general rules for the South to prove their secession. The South refused to follow this first step.
[#3Fan] I accept your concession that there was nothing inherently illegal about an act of secession.
What concession? If I never said that secession was illegal, there's nothing to concede.
Something is not illegal unless there is a law against it. You have just conceded such law did not exist.
Article IV, Section 1 did exist and it said the Congress would decide how the South would prove their secession. The South refused to follow this rule.
Actually, orders to violate the existing armistice were issued within 8 days of Lincoln's inauguration.
Sumter was fired upon, there's no getting around that.
March 12, 1861 To Captain I. Vogdes First Artillery, U.S. Army [in USS Brooklyn] "At the first opportunity, you will land your company, reinforce Fort Pickens, and hold the same till further orders, etc." [This order was received by Capt. Vogdes on March 31, 1861] LINK U. S. TRANSPORT ATLANTIC, [New York,] April 6, 1861 -- 2k p. m. Hon. WM. H. SEWARD, Secretary of State: DEAR SIR: By great exertions, within less than six days from the time the subject was broached in the office of the President, a war steamer sails from this port; and the Atlantic, built under contract to be at the service of the United States in case of war, will follow this afternoon with 500 troops, of which one company is sappers and miners, one a mounted battery. The Illinois...
Woo hoo!
...will follow on Monday with the stores which the Atlantic could not hold. While the mere throwing of a few men into Fort Pickens may seem a small operation, the opening of a campaign is a great one. Unless this movement is supported by ample supplies and followed up by the Navy it will be a failure. This is the beginning of the war which every statesman and soldier has foreseen since the passage of the South Carolina ordinance of secession. You will find the Army and the Navy clogged at the head with men, excellent patriotic men, men who were soldiers and sailors forty years ago, but who now merely keep active men out of the places in which they could serve the country. If you call out volunteers you have no general to command. The general born, not made, is yet to be found who is to govern the great army which is to save the country, if saved it can be. Colonel Keyes has shown intelligence, zeal, activity, and I look for a high future for him. England took six months to get a soldier to the Crimea. We were from May to September in getting General Taylor before Monterey. Let us be supported; we go to serve our country, and our country should not neglect us or leave us to be strangled in tape, however red. Respectfully, M. C. MEIGS.
It was federal property. We could do as we wished.