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To: #3Fan
"If the Southern legislators would've went to the Congress and said they intended to secede and needed to enact the general laws to prove that secession, then there would not have been the messy separation if the Congress would've went along with it.

By your logic the Founders' should've gone to the Parliament for approval before seceeding from Britain in 1776. That's totally moronic! You cut the cord and form your own government. Where in this following selection of the Declaration of Independence does it say "seek approval first"?

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Uhhhhhhhhhh, I don't see it anywhere that one must ask permission first. That would be like telling an opposing force "Okay, we'll attack you at such and such a time". Talk about stupid.

As for the rest of your "We set men free speech" spare me the hyperbole. You guys were the aggressors and the reason the South fired on Sumter was that Lincoln sent a reinforcement force under the guise of supply. While I admit the firing on the Fort was a miscalculation on the Souths part, that damn war really didn't need to be fought.

If I was black? Well I'm not, but I'm of Irish descent so don't lay the sob story about slavery on me. My race has been oppressed by the English for 700 years. And while I don't condone slavery in any form, I condemn oppression of any type under any guise. And once again the war wasn't about slavery, that was a ploy used by Lincoln in 1863 when the war was going badly on the home front. It was about the right of secession.

204 posted on 02/29/2004 5:17:25 PM PST by Colt .45 (Cold War, Vietnam Era, Desert Storm Veteran - Pride in my Southern Ancestry!)
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To: Colt .45
By your logic the Founders' should've gone to the Parliament for approval before seceeding from Britain in 1776. That's totally moronic!

You see no difference between a constitutional government and a monarchy?

You cut the cord and form your own government. Where in this following selection of the Declaration of Independence does it say "seek approval first"?

The Declaration of Independence is not our law, the Costitution is. And Article IV was agreed upon by all who signed on to the Constitution. And Article IV is not requiring anyone to seek approval, but it just outlines the procedure for the South to prove it's secession.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

That's fine if you have the power to break the law, as we did against Britain. But you didn't and since you didn't, you were beat. So now you shouldn't complain about being taken to task for breaking the law. Since you didn't have the power to get away with breaking the law, it would've been better for you to follow Article IV.

Uhhhhhhhhhh, I don't see it anywhere that one must ask permission first. That would be like telling an opposing force "Okay, we'll attack you at such and such a time". Talk about stupid.

It was stupid to get into a fight that you couldn't win, and by breaking the law, that's exactly what you did. Since you didn't have the military strength to get away with breaking the law, you should've followed the law in your secession.

As for the rest of your "We set men free speech" spare me the hyperbole. You guys were the aggressors and the reason the South fired on Sumter was that Lincoln sent a reinforcement force under the guise of supply.

It was our property, we could do as we wished.

While I admit the firing on the Fort was a miscalculation on the Souths part, that damn war really didn't need to be fought.

Too late for woulda couldas. You attacked the United States. When we have presidents like Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt (military-wise), Reagan, and the Bushes, you're just not going to get away with that.

If I was black? Well I'm not, but I'm of Irish descent so don't lay the sob story about slavery on me. My race has been oppressed by the English for 700 years.

I'm English. It just never ends, does it? lol

And while I don't condone slavery in any form, I condemn oppression of any type under any guise.

Oppresion is why the South seceded, they wanted to perpetuate oppression.

And once again the war wasn't about slavery, that was a ploy used by Lincoln in 1863 when the war was going badly on the home front. It was about the right of secession.

Going past the attack on the United States, it was about preserving the union, actually. The elimination of slavery was a great fringe benefit.

207 posted on 02/29/2004 9:10:17 PM PST by #3Fan (Kerry to POW-MIA activists: "You'll wish you'd never been born.". Link on my homepage.)
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To: Colt .45
FYI - the person you are debating with has a long running and mentally unstable habit of hijacking threads on the civil war and sinking them under a barrage of uneducated yet abundant verbal defecations. If you continue any attempt to debate him you will eventually find that his bizarre insistance upon getting the last word will literally take you to a debate over what the meaning of "is" is and beyond. That is why you will find yourself recieving 2, 3, 4, or more responses to the same post from him as well as constant and insulting attempts to bait you into further posts.

The result is always the same, viz.: everyone who has something meaningful to contribute to the discussion leaves to escape the stench of his inanities in what becomes every other new post made to the thread and the discussion dies prematurely, leaving only him behind. The only way to avoid this situation is to simply abstain from responding to what he says and he'll eventually wander off to another thread on another subject and repeat the same practice there.

210 posted on 02/29/2004 9:40:40 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: Colt .45
By your logic the Founders' should've gone to the Parliament for approval before seceeding from Britain in 1776. That's totally moronic! You cut the cord and form your own government.

And accept the consequences. The Founders knew their actions were not legal, and that the British government would oppose their actions. They knew that they would have to fight for their freedom? So why were the confederate leaders dumb enough to think otherwise?

220 posted on 03/01/2004 6:30:59 AM PST by Non-Sequitur (Jefferson Davis - the first 'selected, not elected' president.)
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To: Colt .45; GOPcapitalist; nolu chan
Funny how those who desire independence refuse to grovel for it at the feet of their masters prior to making a stand.
226 posted on 03/01/2004 12:19:17 PM PST by Gianni (Everyone's a closet economist.)
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