Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
Gen. Washington refused a pardon during the war, stating that he had done nothing treaonable. Jefferson Davis also refused a pardon for the same reason.
He was a disgrace if he can't see the abuse of his people by slaveowners.
Was he still wearing a dress?
Great atrocities [PLURAL} do not refer to the same event.
Being that the American population was 30 million at the time, your estimate is high. Nothing new for a neoconfederate.
Your estimate is too low ;o)
350 is not "thousands" and the 350 isn't even of Sherman's men, it's for all armies in the whole 4 years of war. That means just a few for Sherman's men.
How many times have you "officially" recieved a ticket for a traffic offense? Now how many times have you broke a traffic law without being ticketed?
Again, Lee would've attacked supplies if he could've. Where does the law say supplies are not to be attacked.
If you could comprehend English, you just read what Lee wrote.
Then why did he join with the lawbreaking tyrannists?
His state seceded. His allegiance was to his state. Maybe they didn't want to be forced to pray to Lincoln.
He wasn't a traitor for not praying for Lincoln, but it was a sign that he could turn into one. If during war, a person shows that he does not support the cause, he could be a traitor.
You would fit in wonderfully with the Gestapo. That document we have, the Constitution, has a section in it about "freedom of speech." It was put in by the founders primarily to allow the populace to express their dissatisfaction of the government without fear of reprisal.
You people are so attractive and even-minded. /sarcasm
This from someone who wrote: "Death to Tyrants!" </sarcasm>
Thanks to Lincoln. He ended slavery in the South. The Confederates vowed to perpetuate it.
Not hardly. Lincoln is on record as favoring the Corwin amendment and making slavery PERMANENT.
How is it that slavery ended as soo as we beat down the Confederate tyrannists then?
Let's see, unable to win honorably on the battlefield in 4 years, the Yankees resorted to waging war against innocent women and children, the theft of millions in property, the wanton destruction of churchs and private property, and then attempted to starve the Confederacy into submission. New Jersey enumerated 18 slaves in the 1860 census.
No, I'm aware there are nuts in every crowd. Anyone who fights to keep is own people enslaved is a disgrace.
Slavery was legal in the United States, Lincoln supported a union making it PERMANENT. There was no need to secede to continue slavery. I'm aware there are nuts in every crowd. Anyone who supports an amendment to keep ANY people enslaved is a disgrace.
He never wore one. Lincoln habitually wore a shawl.
OK, there's two. Where's the other 1998?
Your estimate is too low ;o)
What estimate? I've given no number, I just want documentation for your "thousands" for Sherman's men alone.
How many times have you "officially" recieved a ticket for a traffic offense? Now how many times have you broke a traffic law without being ticketed?
Rape is not speeding. It takes a criminal mind to rape. That's what makes your accusations extraordinary and therefore requires that you document them.
If you could comprehend English, you just read what Lee wrote.
Again Lee would've attacked supplies. Show me where it's illegal to attack supplies.
His state seceded. His allegiance was to his state. Maybe they didn't want to be forced to pray to Lincoln.
Pray for Lincoln. Again you prove you deceptiveness by twisting the words of others. Nothing you say can be trusted obviously.
You would fit in wonderfully with the Gestapo. That document we have, the Constitution, has a section in it about "freedom of speech." It was put in by the founders primarily to allow the populace to express their dissatisfaction of the government without fear of reprisal.
In times of rebellion, the president has the power to save the country from traitors or possible traitors. The South should've learned about freedom and not seceded for slavery.
This from someone who wrote: "Death to Tyrants!"
You don't agree with that? You want to change Virginia's flag?
Not hardly. Lincoln is on record as favoring the Corwin amendment and making slavery PERMANENT.
He was trying to preserve the union. Any amendment can be repealed and Lincoln knew that.
Let's see, unable to win honorably on the battlefield in 4 years, the Yankees resorted to waging war against innocent women and children, the theft of millions in property, the wanton destruction of churchs and private property, and then attempted to starve the Confederacy into submission.
So you consider Ike and Truman dishonorable also? You're just whining because when the South asked for war, Sherman gave them exactly what they asked for.
New Jersey enumerated 18 slaves in the 1860 census.
3,999,982 less than the South.
Slavery was legal in the United States, Lincoln supported a union making it PERMANENT.
Lincoln was compromising to save the union and knew any amendment could be repealed later.
There was no need to secede to continue slavery.
The Declarations state that slavery was the reason for secession.
I'm aware there are nuts in every crowd. Anyone who supports an amendment to keep ANY people enslaved is a disgrace.
Glad to see you admit the South was a disgrace. Lincoln acted to save the union knowing that any amendment could be repealed.
God does have a sense of humor. Saddam in his spidey hole and Davis in his dress. lol
...that just about sums up the entire latter half of this thread so far as the pet lunatic is involved!
That he did, and to this day Lincoln's shawl is in public view along with a collection of other Lincoln artifacts in the Lincoln museum at Ford's Theatre. It is an extremely effeminate shawl at that and has volumous and lengthy frills extending from its edges at least 4 inches. It is a beige color and would not be out of place decorating an old lady's couch or wrapped around her head in the coldest days of winter...just as Lincoln did on his way to the inauguration!
"I am no admirer of Jeff Davis - I am a Yankee, full of Yankee prejudices, but I think it is wicked to lie. I was with the party that captured Jeff Davis; I saw the whole transaction from the beginning. I now say that Jeff Davis did not have on at the time he was taken any such garment as is worn by women. He did have over his shoulders a water proof article of clothing, something like a havelock. He was not in the least concealed. He wore a hat and did not carry a pail, bucket or kettle of any kind. I defy any person to find a single officer or soldier who was present at the capture to say that he was disguised in woman's clothes, or that his wife acted in any way unlady-like or undignified on the occasion."
Capt. James H. Parker.
A union officer.
As far as I'm concerned, he's probably a decent guy. But he epitomizes exactly what the South seceded from.
Mr. Lincoln and Colonel Lamon got on board the car without discovery or mishap. Besides themselves, there was no one in or about the car but Mr. Lewis, General Superintendent of the Pennsylvania Central Railroad, and Mr. Franciscus, superintendent of the division over which they were about to pass. As Mr. Lincoln's dress on this occasion has been much discussed, it may be as well to state that he wore a soft, light felt hat, drawn down over his face when it seemed necessary or convenient, and a shawl thrown over his shoulders, and pulled up to assist in disguising his features when passing to and from the carriage.
Ward H. Lamon, The life of Abraham Lincoln; from his birth to his inauguration as president, Boston: James R. Osgood & Co (1872), p. 523.
Agreed.
"The mere expression of “the irrepressible conflict” was credited first to Mr. Lincoln, and then to Mr. Seward, and then to the Senator from Ohio; but this doctrine of perfectibility in the people of the free States is of New England origin. It began before your Revolution; long before that. It began when Charles lost his throne. I think it began before his time. Old John Knox started it and then it got down into England. They helped Cromwell to cut off their King's head. After that, better than even the Puritans, they were called Independents; then they were called fifth-monarchy men; and then Cromwell had to run them out of England; and then they went over to Holland, and the Dutch let them alone, but would not let them persecute anybody else; and then they got on that ill-fated ship called the Mayflower and landed on Plymouth Rock. And from that time to this, they have been kicking up a dust generally, and making a mess whenever they could put their fingers in the pie. They confederated with the other states to save themselves from the power of old King George III; and no sooner than they had gotten rid of him than they turned to persecuting their neighbors. Having got rid of the Indians, and witches, and Baptists, and Quakers in their country; after selling us our negroes for the love of gold, they began stealing them back for the love of God. That is the history as well as I understand it." - Sen. Louis T. Wigfall, March 2, 1861
You state this three times in one reply.
Time to show your evidence that Lincoln planned the eventual repeal.
Point us to these 'reported accounts.' All the ones I've seen state that the dress is a lie. Perhaps Non would be proud of you for aiding in the Northron myth-making machine.
He (and everyone else) was ignoring you until I prompted him.
Have you ever read the Declarations of Secession?
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