Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
I want to see direct proof that the Confederate POWs were massacred. Something like a letter from the Secretary telling his underlings to kill the POWs will do. As we've seen here especially lately, people in the government will lie about their higher-ups if they have an agenda. 140 years from now would you want someone quoting Clarke to see what was going through the mind of Rice and Bush? This Whitman guy looks like he has an agenda because he is praising the rebels. In every war people have the opportunity to commit murder and some take it. It could be that they were intentionally starved but I'd have to see better proof than from a third party. Each side has it's murderers. I've avoided accusing any general of murder because war is hell but I think there was one confederate general that did basically murder his troops because he was angry at them about something and made them fight at night where they were massacred by Union soldiers. I don't live for this stuff and some of you guys do so I know you know who I'm talking about but I can't remember his name. "Cook" or something like that. Getting back to the POWs, there was a war going on and we didn't have the system of taxation we have now so supplies may have been tight at times or the availability of surgeons, or the availability of ships to exchange POWs. Plus, even the soldiers in the field died two to one from disease compared to battle if I'm not mistaken. So the death rate in the Union-controlled POW camps may not have been much worse than the death rate of the free union soldiers from disease. All these factors add up to the fact there may have been more going through the Secretary's mind than meets the eye.
By the way, the Immortal Captives book is extremely well documented. I bought my copy at Andersonville Prison in the Park Service store.
I'd have to see good proof before I'd accuse an official of murder of POWs. Of course we know it goes on though. Japanese soldiers were not taken prisoner in a lot of cases. It's like Sherman implied, most generals in wartime could be charged with these things. He's right, though almost all would not be convicted.
I said "you guys".
Are you that stupid? I don't live at home, you idiot. Crapitalist said I did.
Top of the Smokey Backroom? It's been about the only thing in the Smokey Backroom for days now. :^)
"You guys"? Who are you talking about, "you guys"? Prove that I "hate northern cities", that I "hate northerners" (why would anyone hate northerners? -- your charm so recommends you). Prove I "hate the union soldiers", that I "hate our former president", and that I "hate union generals". Come one, you said it. Back it up or shut up. Without support, your post is flatly abusive.
Contrast that with the things I've said, where the only people I've ever said anything against is the slaveholder-secessionists, the ones that were thugs.
"The only people [you've] ever said anything against" just happen to include "you guys", i.e. just about everyone on this board. You contradict yourself, and you're abusing people even as you cloak yourself in a threadbare selfrighteousness that is belied by your most proximate spew.
You gave me that speech where you said you were a decent person and a nice guy, but all you do is spew hatred in an unfair way and you lie.
All he does is "spew hatred in an unfair way and ....lie"? Prove that, too, while you are at it. You realize, of course, that his (or anyone's) being able to point to a single post in which Gianni does anything but what you unfairly say he does, makes you a witting liar and abuser.
Sovereigns denounce treaties and abrogate laws all the time. They revoke constitutions if they please. Your attempt wilfully to bind your interlocutors with a faithless argument notwithstanding, the point's been made.
Furthermore, the obvious bad faith and name-calling of your deliberate mischaracterizations of my argument about the People's powers as sovereign disqualifies you from further discussion -- of anything. You're a renegade and a troll, irresponsible, and faithless, and you speak with forked tongue. Go away.
Look at all the hate on this thread from the neoconfederates.
(why would anyone hate northerners? -- your charm so recommends you).
What have I done that makes you say that? I haven't spewed any hate like you guys have.
Prove I "hate the union soldiers", that I "hate our former president", and that I "hate union generals". Come one, you said it. Back it up or shut up. Without support, your post is flatly abusive.
Read this thread and you'll see lies and namecalling against Lincoln, Chicago, Indianans, Sherman, and Union soldiers from your side.
"The only people [you've] ever said anything against" just happen to include "you guys", i.e. just about everyone on this board. You contradict yourself, and you're abusing people even as you cloak yourself in a threadbare selfrighteousness that is belied by your most proximate spew.
Of course I've said things against you guys, all of you have either continuously personally attacked me and lied about me or both. But when it comes to the argument, the hatred is all one-sided except that I have said I despised the slaveholder-secessionists. Most of what you guys post is hate.
All he does is "spew hatred in an unfair way and ....lie"? Prove that, too,
His Chicago quote and he said I was unemployed...a lie.
...while you are at it. You realize, of course, that his (or anyone's) being able to point to a single post in which Gianni does anything but what you unfairly say he does, makes you a witting liar and abuser.
Gianni has been very hateful, calling me a "freak" unprovoked, putting down Chicago, and lying about my employment...three off the top of my head.
What do you want my mailing address? Forget it. Crapitalist lied when he said I live with my parents, simple as that. He lied when he said I was going to Louisiana. You guys lie about a lot of things.
If you want to read 1500 posts of 7 people calling me every name in the book, then I guess you can spend a couple days doing that. :^)
Wrong, we're a nation of laws and our Constitution has never been revoked.
Furthermore, the obvious bad faith and name-calling of your deliberate mischaracterizations of my argument about the People's powers as sovereign disqualifies you from further discussion -- of anything. You're a renegade and a troll, irresponsible, and faithless, and you speak with forked tongue. Go away.
Again we're a nation of laws sanctioned by God in Romans.
When did I EVER post one of your opinions and act like it was the truth?
Neither Bush nor Reagan was a racist. Neither Bush nor Reagan was a rapist of the Constitution.
Provide quotes of those who, if they exist, wrote favorably of Lincoln before he was dead.
Abraham Lincoln was a Southern poor white, of illegitimate birth, poorly educated and unusually ugly, awkward, ill-dressed. He liked smutty stories and was a politician down to his toes. Aristocrats -- Jeff Davis, Seward and their ilk-despised him, and indeed he had little outwardly that compelled respect.
Remember that #3Dictionary defines #3God and General Benjamin "Spoons" Butler.
Who gets to define what is "God's law?" Must we settle for some snake handler, such as yourself?
Lincoln was a product of his time, like some of the founding fathers, but not a racist like those that drafted the Declarations of Secession plus he did what was allowed in the Constitution.
Provide quotes of those who, if they exist, wrote favorably of Lincoln before he was dead.
I said he wasn't liked by the socialites.
Abraham Lincoln was a Southern poor white, of illegitimate birth, poorly educated and unusually ugly, awkward, ill-dressed. He liked smutty stories and was a politician down to his toes. Aristocrats -- Jeff Davis, Seward and their ilk-despised him, and indeed he had little outwardly that compelled respect.
You are a typical hateful neoconfederate. Notice that my posts don't show the hate that you guy's posts do.
What typo? I see no typographical error. I see nothing misspelled.
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