Posted on 12/14/2015 7:44:24 AM PST by SeekAndFind
A leading Jewish Messianic group in America has responded to the Vatican's recent claim that Jews do not need to be believers in Jesus Christ to be saved, by saying that the Apostle Paul would have been "horrified" at the suggestion.
David Brickner, executive director of Jews for Jesus, said in a statement late last week that the suggestions of the Vatican's Commission for Religious Relations with Jews are : ... egregious, especially coming from an institution which seeks to represent a significant number of Christians in the world."
He further pointed out that the document's title, "The Gifts and Calling of God are irrevocable," is taken from Paul's words in Romans 11:29, but said that the New Testament figure would greatly disagree with how they have been applied here.
Brickner said:
"We believe that the Apostle Paul, whose name is invoked frequently in the Vatican document, would be horrified at this repudiation of the words with which he started his letter in Romans: 'For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.'"
The Commission released its document last Thursday, which stated that although all people need Christ to be saved, there is a "divine mystery" surrounding how Jewish believers fit in the plan.
"That the Jews are participants in God's salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery," the document argues.
"Since God has never revoked his covenant with his people Israel, there cannot be different paths or approaches to God's salvation," it added, however.
"The theory that there may be two different paths to salvation, the Jewish path without Christ and the path with the Christ, whom Christians believe is Jesus of Nazareth, would in fact endanger the foundations of Christian faith."
The theologians behind the document, including Cardinal Kurt Koch and Fr. Norbert Hofmann of the Vatican Commission, also spoke out against Christian missionary efforts to convert Jews, but at the same time said that Christians are called to share their faith with others.
In his response, Brickner suggested that the document is an attempt to "pander" to Jewish community leaders.
"How can the Vatican ignore the fact that the Great Commission of Jesus Christ mandates that his followers are to bring the gospel to all people? Are they merely pandering to some leaders in the Jewish community who applaud being off the radar for evangelization by Catholics?" he asked.
"If so, they need to be reminded that they first received that gospel message from the lips of Jews who were for Jesus."
Jews for Jesus, which has branches in 13 countries and 25 cities, describes itself on its website as "the largest Jewish mission agency in the world and has, at its core, the goal of proclaiming the message that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world."
The National Catholic Register clarified in an article that the Committee's document does not carry magisterial authority, but offers an insight into the Roman Catholic Church's current thinking.
The document was released as part of commemorations for the fiftieth anniversary of Vatican II's decree Nostra Aetate, which dealt with Catholicism's relation with Judaism and other religions.
“I see no reason why one should consider it being hostile to Jews to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them.”
I can appreciate your point of view, that you believe that you are doing a kindness - the ultimate kindness - by introducing a non-believer to “the way.” But can you understand and appreciate that Jews have a different history, a different set of experiences, in this matter? For Jews in the past (not now), failing to believe in Jesus as the savior of the world was not terribly different from someone today being ruled by Moslems and denying the correctness of Islam. It was convert or be effectively a slave, or die (oh, yeah, I almost forgot - sometimes there was the “kind” option of expulsion, where you got to leave the place you and your family called home, perhaps for hundreds of years, at a moment’s notice - and don’t bother taking the product of a lifetime’s work with you, it isn’t going anywhere).
You see, Jews have an inherent problem with Christians trying to convert us, because it was handled in such a G-d-awful way (pun intended) for such a long period of time over such a wide geographical area. We’re a bit skittish. Read “The Anguish of the Jews - 23 Centuries of Anti-Semitism” by Edward Flannery (a R.C. priest who died in 1998) for some background. No, not all anti-Semitism was Christian in origin, but Flannery had a lot of criticism for the Church. He was VERY clear in concluding that the Holocaust would never have been possible without the pre-condition of many centuries of Christian anti-Semitism having already existed...and that particular form of anti-Semitism has, at its root, the refusal of Jews to convert to Christianity.
No, I am NOT saying that someone like you is an anti-Semite. I don’t know you, and I would never make that accusation. However, I just ask you to understand why Jews - who do, after all, have a different perspective on things - aren’t real excited when the topic arises.
Rather than “Preach the gospel to them, try to convince them that Jesus is not only their messiah but the messiah of the world.” - maybe, instead, just leave us alone to believe and act as we’d like to, so long as we don’t affect your right to believe and worship as you see fit. We’ve already rejected the message, with our property, our blood and our very lives for nearly 2,000 years - so please take the hint.
I’m genuinely happy that you understand that a coerced conversion is meaningless (I wish the Moslems would understand that), and that you wish people to show love & respect to Jews - sincerely, thank you. Let’s just agree to disagree on this particular matter, and let G-d sort it out.
"I guess that you a right, believing Jews ARE each an anti-âChristâ - . . . "
Something I believe Christians should keep in mind when Jewish folk join in on discussions about Christianity.
So, the only question is whether or not Jewish folks consider Christians polytheists and Muzzies monotheists, something a Jewish friend told me but I'm not sure us a universal point of view among Jewish folks.
I am earnestly seeking G-d, but that G-d is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I can tell you for a fact that I will never become a believing Christian, or a believing anything else - I was born a Jew, and I will die believing in the faith of my Fathers and doing my (very imperfect) best to live up to its highest ideals and practices.
Again, I thank you for your kind words and thoughts - it is genuinely refreshing to NOT read something like “believe as I do, or you’re going to burn in Hell!” Not that I believe in a Hell of that sort, anyway, but I’m sure that you understand that such a sentiment coming from another person doesn’t exactly give me the warm & fuzzies.
G-d is indeed kind and just - after all, He invented those very concepts and inscribed them on our souls. I know with a certainty that every person, myself included, will be dealt with justly (though I would hope that my actions during my lifetime would also make me deserving of some of G-d’s mercy).
RE: instead, just leave us alone to believe and act as we’d like to, so long as we don’t affect your right to believe and worship as you see fit.
I’m glad that you understand my point of view, but yes, I have to disagree with your above statement.
You see, Jesus Christ left a message to His followers to preach the gospel to all nations. In fact, it was His last message before He departed.
Therefore, devout Christians consider it their duty to share this message ( they call it the good news ) to their friends, neighbors and anyone (both Jews and gentiles ).
I appreciate that you do not like to be “preached at” that is your prerogative, and I can understand the sad And awful history that makes Jews skittish about Christians doing so. I can even understand how some Christians can be quite annoying when they do this.
to that, I advise my Christian friends to be TACTFUL and not in-your-face.
But please understand when someone out of obedience to what he believes is his duty, does what he does.
A good news is to be shared, not kept inside. If you do not consider this worthy of acceptance, you are under no obligation to accept it.
Just understand that Christians do this out of obedience to Jesus’ command and commission.
They do it not because they are required to do it, but because it is out of love for their fellowmen. The example of Jesus’ followers is simply to share the message, whether the listener accepts it or not is really up to them.
All we ask is for your understanding as to why we evangelize.
And no, your acceptance or non-acceptance won’t affect our right to believe and worship as we see fit.
That is why America, a traditionally Christian country has always been the most welcoming of the Jews.
Believe as you wish, I do not share your stated beliefs (except the particular one that says that we are all sinners - that is undoubtedly true). None CAN be perfect - we were quite purposely designed to be very IMperfect, but with the capacity to improve. The extent of one’s improvement, given the totality of one’s upbringing, education and experiences - THAT is the measure of a person’s life, a measure that only G-d Himself can make.
I will not give up the faith of my fathers in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - ever, period. The more that I experience life, and the more that I study these matters, the more that my faith is reinforced. FYI, being told that I cannot have salvation (i.e. I’m going to burn in the fires of Hell, with some big, nasty, horned and hoofed guy in a red suit sticking me with a pitchfork all the time - ha, ha, ha, ha!) without changing my beliefs doesn’t do anything but reinforce those beliefs.
Go in peace.
I do understand both your sentiments and your motivations. But rare indeed is the person who is trying to convince someone else that his/her entire belief system (and that of their family going back 3,700 years) is utterly wrong, who is also not annoying as Hell. They exist, but are definitely rare. I appreciate your willingness to be delicate about it.
I do have a funny story, though, about a couple of Mormons who knocked on our door once (about 35 years ago). My brother - my very religious brother - answered the door and was talking to them. I was doing homework, and then had to go out for a while. To my surprise, I returned over an hour later and they were STILL talking. 45 minutes later, they finally left. I asked my brother why he bothered, he wasn’t going to change their minds (nor they his). His response was very funny. He said, “Yeah, I know that. But that’s about 2 hours that they wasted with me that they didn’t have to convert anybody else.”
Be well, and keep acting in the decent way that G-d intends us all to do. You do yourself and Him credit, and help to improve this world.
I doubt that Paul--actually, Saul of Tarsus--would have believed, said, or written anything substantially different than you just did. He could never have anticipated what happened to him, nor I what God worked in me. He is stronger than our strongest beliefs. I've met many who said just what you did and were dumbfounded later at what they came to believe wholeheartedly. You heard it here first! Your wonderful God is not finished with you yet. I am not asking or demanding anything of you, friend. I'm just noticing a pattern I've seen many times. O, how He loves you!
Yeah, pretty much. It is far from universal (but not among traditional Jews, there that is a pretty cut-and-dried belief); traditional Judaism does not allow Jews to enter a church for that reason. You can enter a mosque (though why you'd WANT to is an entirely different matter).
The reason for this is that Christians worship "the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." Judaism only recognizes one G-d. Though He has many aspects to His "personality" (for a COMPLETE lack of a better word), He is ONE. This is a huge doctrinal difference. The Catholic praying to saints and to Mary is also, uh, problematic for Jews (and, I understand, also for Protestants, but I plead a great lack of certain knowledge).
Very simply, Jews believe Christians are wrong, just as Christians believe that Jews are wrong. I think that you're a polytheist, and are thereby damaging your soul, and you believe that I'm going to Hell for not believing that Jesus is my savior. Wonder of wonders, people don't see eye-to-eye on everything. OK, fine - so let's simply agree to disagree, and move on. So long as neither side prevents the other from doing what they believe is right and moral, there will be no problems HERE.
Now let's find things that we agree with, like "defeating Hillary Clinton in 2016 is the single most important thing that the American public can do."
I rather doubt your claim to Jewishness is any greater than Paul’s. He was a Jew of Jews, of the tribe of Benjamin. I would dare say, he knew Judaism and the law far better than you, of the strictest sect of Judaism (Pharisee).
He lived two thousand years closer to the truth about this issue (Jews, Gentiles, salvation thought Jesus Christ alone) than you. In fact, he met the issue head to head on the road to Damascus, when he was knocked to the ground and blinded by the brilliance of Christ’s glory, after which encounter becoming the greatest Christian missionary of all time.
You are just a “Johnny come lately” on this issue. You do not know more about it than Paul. He was a Jew too, you know, who lived two thousand years closer to the the truth about Jews, Gentiles, Christ, and salvation, than you.
The issue has never been stated more profoundly, in my opinion, than by Paul in his book of Romans. Why not consider Paul, a fellow Jew, and what he had to say about it?
I am no more - and no less - a Jew than any Jew who ever lived, lives or will live. My degree of religiosity and knowledge - well, that’s a different matter.
Do I know the future for sure? Nope. But neither do you. Maybe you’ll be like the high-ranking Vatican priest that my brother in Israel knows, who converted to Judaism because of what he found in the Vatican archives, and now lives as an extremely Orthodox Jew?
So, Saul of Tarsus converted - big deal. It doesn’t affect me at all. That said, if G-d wants me to do something for Him, then He knows how to locate me...but I have no illusions about my importance or influence beyond my family and immediate circle of friends and acquaintances. I’ll just keep doing what I’ve been doing, and as I suspect you will also do - which is to say, doing the best you can to live according to my/your morality, and hoping to influence others to emulate us by our example.
We get the Jehovah Witnesses all the time here. Mr. GG2 a Messianic Jew and bible scholar will go out on the front porch and talk to them and they finally just leave shaking their heads as they cannot properly respond to his dialogue. He is very well versed on the Jehovah Witnesses and its a scream.
After reviewing the comments on this thread, I highly respect you and your commitment to the G_d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and wish you to know that as a Gentile Christian, understand the wrongs that Christians have visited on your heritage over the previous centuries. I also understand that G_d does not change, and will fulfill the promises of His Everlasting Covenant to His chosen people, Amiyim, the apple of His eye.....that said, I expect that you and I are both waiting for Messiah, the one in Zechariah 12 and 14.....the difference being that I think I know His name! If I am wrong, I will go with whoever it is, and if you are wrong, you will go with me!
Thanks to another Jew, we can know the future. He wrote about the New Jerusalem, among other future things, in particular Christ’s ultimate victory over all enemies.
I’m “talkin’ ‘bout John the revelator”...and Christ’s “feet like brass, eyes like fire,” prophetic of his second coming. Here’s an old spiritual by that name:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxI1iywq6V0
The lyrics:
Upon the Isle of Patmos
A man was cast one day
As he was left alone to die
He began to pray
The Holy Ghost came on him
The Spirit, it came down
He began to write about the things he saw
The Revelator’s name was John
Chorus:
Talkin’ ‘bout John the revelator
he saw Jerusalem coming down
Yes it was John the Revelator
And when he looked around
He saw feet like brass
Eyes like fire
Heard a great voice saying
Come up higher
He was John the Revelator
He wrote about the city of God
I have been studying the Book of Enoch, which was widely admired back in the day, and of which fragments were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls....I am fascinated with the descriptions of the “Son of Man”, and his role.....
RE: I’m trying to extract enough true information to give you the reason you did not see.
Do not see what?
RE: Do you regularly assemble with other scripture believing Christians in a formal manner ?
The scriptures tell us to, so YES.
RE: If so, Is there any kind whatsoever of a general name associated with said assembly (Assembly of God, Anglican, Brethren, Baptist, Calvary, Church of X, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc.) ?
ANY ONE OF THE ABOVE, as long as they sincerely believe that the Bible is the word of God. As long as they to the historic creeds of the Christian faith.
We really don't care either way (unless someone is trying to kill us). All righteous have a place in Olam Ha Ba. That's my interpretation from study. Jews debate.
Torah teaches us worshipping flesh is forbidden as are all forms of idolatry.
We are fooling ourselves if we call God, by the name G-d, and clarify His identity as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, because His name includes His authority and character, which is Provided in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was given faith by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Many racially Jewish Hebrews today assert Jesus Christ could not be who He claimed, because God is Spirit. This is errant because He chooses where He will dwell and the Incarnation was the indwelling of God in man. This is not understood, except by the believer, because the unbeliever lacks the perception of spiritual things as the natural man.
Prior to the Incarnation, God embued His Spirit upon some believers, but His dwelling place was also identified by His Shekinah Glory.
In the Church Age, after Jesus Christ was resurrected and Ascended to Heaven, God the Holy Spirit was sent to convict us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He indwells every believer today.
Those who truly seek to worship the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob may do so only by recognizing and placing faith alone in what He has provided for our Perfect Sacrifice. Once that faith is placed, and we recognize and place our sins on His Perfect Sacrifice, then God is free in His perfect Holiness (His righteousness and Justice) to provide a regenerated human spirit in the believer and in there He indwells.
The Holy Spirit is required for the further sanctification of the believer, which is not possible without God performing His work of faith in us.
We then study His Word, so that God the Holy Spirit may use that faith (doctrine) in our soul and form it into wisdom, slowly sanctifying our heart.
Rely on what He Provides, His Authority, and His Law by which we may abide in one another through faith and love of our brother. (Interestingly, the 3 things He maintained in the Arc of the Covenant.)
The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit in believers isn't unique to the Church Age. In the Millennial Reign, He will only indwell the Jewish believers.
Thanks for your kind words and thoughts. I think that we can both agree that G-d is very understanding and forgiving, and that if we (or anyone else, for that matter) lives a basically decent and moral life (and our moralities are necessarily very similar), then we will be forgiven our mistakes. We may differ as to the particulars of that, but that it will occur is, IMHO, beyond a doubt.
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