The Vatican Is Wrong, Jews Need Jesus for Salvation, Says Messianic Group

Ooookay, believe whatever you would like to believe. I get the sense that you are a moral person (with imperfections, like ALL of us, that you are trying to remedy). Take my advice: do as you wish, but abide by the 7 Laws of Noah. You do that, and you have a place in the World to Come (i.e. Heaven). Doing so does NOT require that you be Jewish (the first Jew, Abraham, came 10 generations after Noah), just that you act in a moral manner. The rest of your beliefs and practices are up to you.

RE: I was certain it was you who wrote “I see no reason why one should consider it being hostile to Jews to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them.”

Yes it was me, what’s wrong with what I wrote?

RE: Thus are you left in communion with the original German author and architect of the Holocaust, and you do see no reason why one should consider it being hostile to Jews to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them.

Oh I see, you are unable to distinguish between having fellowship with Christians TODAY BASED ON THE BELIEFS and the CREEDS THEY ADHERE TO and someone who did wrong things 600 years ago.

I guess with that line of reasoning, I have to say that you are left with the communion with Popes who were involved in adultery, fornication, rape and murder.

RE: and you do see no reason why one should consider it being hostile to Jews to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them.

Explain to me what’s wrong with the above?

Jesus Christ Himself told his disciples to make disciples of ALL NATIONS ( don’t tell me Jews are not included here ).

And most of His first disciples who obeyed His commandments were JEWS.

Here is what St. Paul himself wrote:

“For I see no reason to be ashamed of the gospel; it is God’s power for the salvation of everyone who has faith — Jews first, but Greeks as well” ( Romans 1:16 - Catholic Bible ).

So, if St. Paul, who by the way, in his past life, instigated the crowd to stone Stephen to death, teaches Christians to do this, why should we not listen?

As for all the atrocities done by Protestants in the past ( and then by insinuation, implying that those who agree to a set of beliefs they share are in communion or in agreement with what they did ), if I were to follow your logic, I guess I would have to conclude that you agree with the following:

1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that “the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord...As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ’s death set free...” i.e. they would be slaves of Christians.

1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge — reminiscent of the Star of David that the Nazis required Jews to wear.

1478: The Spanish Inquisition was organized by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions of Jews to Christianity. Many tortured into submission.

1516: Catholic Venice forced Jews to live only in one parish, called the “Ghetto Novo.”

1555: A Roman Catholic Papal bull, “Cum nimis absurdum,” required Jews in Vatican controlled lands to wear badges, and be confined to ghettos. Over 3,000 people were crammed into about 8 acres of land. The public health problems were horrendous.

1648-9: Massacres of Jews occurred in Nemirov, Polonnoye, Tulchin, Volhynia, Bar, Lvov, and other cities in Ukraine. About 100,000 Jews were murdered and 300 communities destroyed.

During these centuries, there were a few attempts by various popes to reduce the impact of the church’s policies against the Jews. They were largely ignored.

The above reasoning is of course, a FALLACY -— implying just because you share a set of beliefs of someone, means that you agree with everything else they do.

Hey, Adolf Hitler believes that the sun rises in the east, he believes that the sun sets in the west. I’m sure you do too... therefore, what follows from these common things you agree with?

Man

This pope and some Catholics believe weird stuff

Tell me about it, just look at some of the weird posts in this thread...

It’s about preserving something exclusive

And it’s got few rules if you’re born in it

Unless you choose to act on them

Being for instance a Southern Baptist or Assembly of God has rules and expectations

Yes it was me, whatâ€™s wrong with what I wrote?

When you write "â€œI see no reason ... " it indicates to me you are oblivious to history and do not realize why Jewish victims should consider it hostility when others preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them. Given what has happened, not only 600 years ago, but just two generations ago when at least one third of the Jews in the world were murdered in countries where people would "preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them," a reasonable person should see a reason why targeting Jews could be considered hostile.
Oh I see, you are unable to distinguish between having fellowship with Christians TODAY BASED ON THE BELIEFS and the CREEDS THEY ADHERE TO and someone who did wrong things 600 years ago.

I gave you an opportunity to transparently declare which general denomination/sect you regularly assemble with. Since you chose "ANY ONE OF THE ABOVE," and specified the "CREEDS THEY ADHERE TO",/i>, That, in my view, puts you squarely in the Sola Fide camp. Like Kristallnacht, Sola Fide may be traced to Martin Luther (although neither are justified by Sola Scriptura, but rather condemned). Luther spent his latter years, until his death, conspiring to persecute and murder Jews.
I guess with that line of reasoning, I have to say that you are left with the communion with Popes who were involved in adultery, fornication, rape and murder.

Not at all; that would be ignorance on your part. Just as Judas fell, any Pope can fall. If any do not do the works of the Messiah, they are not his sheep. There is no Once Saved Always Saved.
Here is what St. Paul himself wrote:
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans, Catholic chapter nine, Protestant verses one to five,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

If one wishes to be like Paul, wish to be accursed from the Messiah for the sake of the Jewish people, and be convincing.
The aforementioned Catholic documen (which I doubt many have even completely read) gives a thoughtful and compassionate treatment of the topic and the reasons why the Catholic Church no longer targets the Jews. Instead, Catholics are directed to be living witnesses of the Messiah.

It is easy to understand that the soâ€“called â€˜mission to the Jewsâ€™ is a very delicate and sensitive matter for Jews because, in their eyes, it involves the very existence of the Jewish people. This question also proves to be awkward for Christians, because for them the universal salvific significance of Jesus Christ and consequently the universal mission of the Church are of fundamental importance. The Church is therefore obliged to view evangelisation to Jews, who believe in the one God, in a different manner from that to people of other religions and world views. In concrete terms this means that the Catholic Church neither conducts nor supports any specific institutional mission work directed towards Jews. While there is a principled rejection of an institutional Jewish mission, Christians are nonetheless called to bear witness to their faith in Jesus Christ also to Jews, although they should do so in a humble and sensitive manner, acknowledging that Jews are bearers of Godâ€™s Word, and particularly in view of the great tragedy of the Shoah.
There is always tension between salesmen and prospects. Someone who is genuine, someone who lays down his life for the Jewish brethren, is transparent and a living witness to what the Messiah has done in his life. Give me a dozen Catholic adulterers like Oskar Schindler instead of a thousand German preachers to show the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Luther's words were poison.

RE: When you write “I see no reason ... “ it indicates to me you are oblivious to history

I think YOU are the one who is oblivious to ANCIENT history.

Jesus came to the world to preach the gospel FIRST to the Jews, and then commanded His disciples to preach the gospel BOTH to the Jews and the Gentiles ( See Acts 1:8 ).

Just because there were people who misused Christianity to oppress Jews does not mean Christians should ignore the command of their Master.

You keep focusing on the EVIL that was done in the name of Jesus Christ when the moral lesson is obvious — Preach the TRUE GOSPEL of Jesus (which means you avoid evil and do good ).

RE: I gave you an opportunity to transparently declare which general denomination/sect you regularly assemble with.

And I told you that I do not have one denomination/sect that I regularly assemble with. I assemble with ANY denomination that adheres to scripture and the historic creeds of the Christian faith. I will repeat it in this post.

RE: Since you chose “ANY ONE OF THE ABOVE,” and specified the “CREEDS THEY ADHERE TO”,/i>, That, in my view, puts you squarely in the Sola Fide camp.

That puts me in the camp of those who believe in the historic Christian faith. You may want to use the “terms” that the Roman Catholics or even the Protestants in the past use, I will argue on the other hand, the merits or demerits of what I believe in whether or not it is closer to what the apostles themselves believe and taught.

RE: Like Kristallnacht, Sola Fide may be traced to Martin Luther (although neither are justified by Sola Scriptura, but rather condemned). Luther spent his latter years, until his death, conspiring to persecute and murder Jews.

Again, you are confusing Christian beliefs with DISTORTIONS of the belief. Where in Scripture does it teach that one should commit mass murder?

Let me show you the fallacy of your argument with just a few examples from the Roman Catholic Church:

681: The Synod of Toledo orders the burning of the Talmud and other books

830: Agobard, Archbishop of Lyons, writes anti-Jewish pamphlets in which he refers to Jews as “sons of darkness”

1010-1020: In Rouen, OrlÃ©ans, Limoges, Mainz, and probably also in Rome, Jews are converted by force, massacred, or expelled BY CATHOLICS, egged on by their Bishops

1081: Pope Gregory VII writes to King Alphonso of Spain telling him that if he allows Jews to be lords over Christians, he is oppressing the Church and exalting “the Synagogue of Satan”

1182: Jews are expelled from Roman Catholic France, all their property is confiscated, and Christians’ debts to them are cancelled with the payment of one-fifth of their value to the treasury

Several Catholic Church Councils orders Jews to wear a ROUND PATCH (e.g. Council of Narbonne, The Council of Arles, The Council of Albi ). Finally in 1267
The Synod of Breslau decrees compulsory ghettos for Jews.

ALL ROMAN CATHOLIC COUNCILS.

1553: Cardinal Carafa instigates a public burning of copies of the Talmud and other Jewish religious works in a square in Rome

1555-1559: Pope Paul IV restricts Jews to ghettos and decrees that they are to wear distinctive headgear

1566-1572: Pope St. Pius V expels Jews from the Papal States, allowing some to remain in Rome’s ghettos and in Ancona for commercial reasons

1592-1605: Pope Clement VIII includes a ban on all Jewish books in the expanded Index of Forbidden Books

1826: Pope Leo XII decrees that Jews are to be confined to ghettos and their property is to be confiscated

Let me stop here because there are SCORES of other atrocities the Roman Catholic Church commited on the Jews...

Here’s my point — if I were to follow your logic of the Kristallnacht, then I would have to say that since you are communion with all of the above Popes, councils and Roman Catholics, that puts you squarely in SUPPORT of all the atrocities they did.

Why do I not do that? Simple — because I treat you as an INDIVIDUAL. You of course, refuse to give me the same courtesy, preferring instead an ad-hominem attack on an individual you don’t even know ( which BTW, YOU STARTED ).

RE: Not at all; that would be ignorance on your part. Just as Judas fell, any Pope can fall. If any do not do the works of the Messiah, they are not his sheep. There is no Once Saved Always Saved.

Well your logic applies as well to the other side, just as Any Pope can fall, Martin Luther or any other person who subscribes to say, Sola Scriptura can fall as well.

Even St, Peter himself denied Christ three times. Even King David committed murder and adultery. What’s your point? That their beliefs are therefore invalid? That those who believe as they do are therefore supportive of their sins?

One can for instance say that one adheres to the gospels but ignore what it clearly teaches — LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, DO GOOD TO THEM THAT HATE YOU, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

SO, if you can overlook the evil that past Popes did, why do you not overlook the inconsistencies of those who disagree with the popes concerning doctrine?

RE: If one wishes to be like Paul, wish to be accursed from the Messiah for the sake of the Jewish people, and be convincing.

TRUE, therefore, what follows? What follows is that one should follow the RIGHT example of St. Paul himself who wrote the above -— PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE JEWS ( He calls them Israelites in the passage that you quoted (ROMANS 9:3).

But I wrote that in my previous post so I see nothing inconsistent with what I wrote and what St. Paul teaches.

This is true for EVERYONE, me and YOU as well.

RE: The aforementioned Catholic documen (which I doubt many have even completely read) gives a thoughtful and compassionate treatment of the topic and the reasons why the Catholic Church no longer targets the Jews.

Well, NOW you refer to a more MODERN doctrine which in a sense DISSOCIATES ITSELF from every single anti-semitic act and deed perpetrated by their past councils and Popes.

Let me see if you are capable of extending the same courtesy to non-Roman Catholic denominations TODAY...

Now, I’d like you to go and dialog with a Lutheran today and ask them whether they support Martin Luther’s anti-semitic rantings TODAY.

Start with the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church.

I am willing to bet that NONE of them agree with the anti-semitic statements that Martin Luther said in the past. As for you, I am not sure if you are willing to take that into consideration... or are you still going to keep a 600 year old score ( while overlooking the Roman Catholic Church’s past atrocities against Jews ).

RE: There is always tension between salesmen and prospects. Someone who is genuine, someone who lays down his life for the Jewish brethren, is transparent and a living witness to what the Messiah has done in his life.

Yes, but that is true of ANY INDIVIDUAL. You cannot generalize this to every member of a denomination.

RE: Give me a dozen Catholic adulterers like Oskar
Schindler instead of a thousand German preachers to show the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Why limit it to German preachers? What about non-German ones? What about Protestants of other denominations and Roman Catholic ones?

RE: Luther’s words were poison.

But so were the writings of the past Roman Catholic Church councils. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

It would be best that you separate doctrine from those individuals who fail to leave up to it.

One can for instance say that one adheres to the gospels but ignore what it clearly teaches â€” LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, DO GOOD TO THEM THAT HATE YOU, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses four to nine,
Leviticus, Catholic chapter nineteen, Protestant verses seventeen to eighteen,
Luke, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses twenty five to twenty eight,
Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty five, Protestant verses thirty one to forty six,
as authorized. But not authored, by King James

Who is the LORD ?
Do you believe the LORD ?
Are the Jewish people, including those Luther hated, at least, the least of the Messiah's brethren ?

RE: Who is the LORD ?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God who created the world as He revealed Himself in the Book of Genesis.

The God who is Triune, who became incarnate in Jesus Christ, whose spirit guides believers in understanding His words today,

The God who is acknowledged in the Apostles and the Nicene Creed.

RE: Do you believe the LORD ?

Absolutely — YWHW as He revealed Himself as the Great I AM to Moses.

RE: Are the Jewish people, including those Luther hated,

I have to add in the interest of balance — who a lot of Catholic leaders including Popes, hated.

RE: at least, the least of the Messiah’s brethren ?

The Jews are people like you and me. All of us have “sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God” (Romans 3:23). All ( Jews and Gentiles ) need to hear the gospel and accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Therefore, as I posted the first time — The gospel needs to be preached TO THE JEWS ( and GENTILES ).

Are those all Martin Luther’s anti-semitic quotes?

Are those all Martin Lutherâ€™s anti-semitic quotes?

They are all from his book, and there are more besides. Some are so vulgar as to be unsuitable to print.

RE: Are the Jewish people, including those Luther hated,

I have to add in the interest of balance â€” who a lot of Catholic leaders including Popes, hated.

RE: at least, the least of the Messiahâ€™s brethren ?

The Jews are people like you and me. All of us have â€œsinned and fallen short of the Glory of Godâ€ (Romans 3:23). All ( Jews and Gentiles ) need to hear the gospel and accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Therefore, as I posted the first time â€” The gospel needs to be preached TO THE JEWS ( and GENTILES ).

did not answer what was asked; failed the test; no credibility with the Jews;

RE: did not answer what was asked; failed the test; no credibility with the Jews;

Making a statement and showing that it is valid are two different things. In your case, you are simply making a statement and not showing how it’s valid.

My basis for answering your question is SCRIPTURE itself. What’s yours?