The Vatican Is Wrong, Jews Need Jesus for Salvation, Says Messianic Group

Christian Post ^ | 12/14/2015 | Stoyan Zaimov

[Ancesthntr]

“I see no reason why one should consider it being hostile to Jews to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them.”

I can appreciate your point of view, that you believe that you are doing a kindness - the ultimate kindness - by introducing a non-believer to “the way.” But can you understand and appreciate that Jews have a different history, a different set of experiences, in this matter? For Jews in the past (not now), failing to believe in Jesus as the savior of the world was not terribly different from someone today being ruled by Moslems and denying the correctness of Islam. It was convert or be effectively a slave, or die (oh, yeah, I almost forgot - sometimes there was the “kind” option of expulsion, where you got to leave the place you and your family called home, perhaps for hundreds of years, at a moment’s notice - and don’t bother taking the product of a lifetime’s work with you, it isn’t going anywhere).

You see, Jews have an inherent problem with Christians trying to convert us, because it was handled in such a G-d-awful way (pun intended) for such a long period of time over such a wide geographical area. We’re a bit skittish. Read “The Anguish of the Jews - 23 Centuries of Anti-Semitism” by Edward Flannery (a R.C. priest who died in 1998) for some background. No, not all anti-Semitism was Christian in origin, but Flannery had a lot of criticism for the Church. He was VERY clear in concluding that the Holocaust would never have been possible without the pre-condition of many centuries of Christian anti-Semitism having already existed...and that particular form of anti-Semitism has, at its root, the refusal of Jews to convert to Christianity.

No, I am NOT saying that someone like you is an anti-Semite. I don’t know you, and I would never make that accusation. However, I just ask you to understand why Jews - who do, after all, have a different perspective on things - aren’t real excited when the topic arises.

Rather than “Preach the gospel to them, try to convince them that Jesus is not only their messiah but the messiah of the world.” - maybe, instead, just leave us alone to believe and act as we’d like to, so long as we don’t affect your right to believe and worship as you see fit. We’ve already rejected the message, with our property, our blood and our very lives for nearly 2,000 years - so please take the hint.

I’m genuinely happy that you understand that a coerced conversion is meaningless (I wish the Moslems would understand that), and that you wish people to show love & respect to Jews - sincerely, thank you. Let’s just agree to disagree on this particular matter, and let G-d sort it out.

[Rashputin]

"I guess that you a right, believing Jews ARE each an anti-”Christ” - . . . "

Something I believe Christians should keep in mind when Jewish folk join in on discussions about Christianity.

So, the only question is whether or not Jewish folks consider Christians polytheists and Muzzies monotheists, something a Jewish friend told me but I'm not sure us a universal point of view among Jewish folks.

[Ancesthntr]

I am earnestly seeking G-d, but that G-d is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I can tell you for a fact that I will never become a believing Christian, or a believing anything else - I was born a Jew, and I will die believing in the faith of my Fathers and doing my (very imperfect) best to live up to its highest ideals and practices.

Again, I thank you for your kind words and thoughts - it is genuinely refreshing to NOT read something like “believe as I do, or you’re going to burn in Hell!” Not that I believe in a Hell of that sort, anyway, but I’m sure that you understand that such a sentiment coming from another person doesn’t exactly give me the warm & fuzzies.

G-d is indeed kind and just - after all, He invented those very concepts and inscribed them on our souls. I know with a certainty that every person, myself included, will be dealt with justly (though I would hope that my actions during my lifetime would also make me deserving of some of G-d’s mercy).

[SeekAndFind]

RE: instead, just leave us alone to believe and act as we’d like to, so long as we don’t affect your right to believe and worship as you see fit.

I’m glad that you understand my point of view, but yes, I have to disagree with your above statement.

You see, Jesus Christ left a message to His followers to preach the gospel to all nations. In fact, it was His last message before He departed.

Therefore, devout Christians consider it their duty to share this message ( they call it the good news ) to their friends, neighbors and anyone (both Jews and gentiles ).

I appreciate that you do not like to be “preached at” that is your prerogative, and I can understand the sad And awful history that makes Jews skittish about Christians doing so. I can even understand how some Christians can be quite annoying when they do this.

to that, I advise my Christian friends to be TACTFUL and not in-your-face.

But please understand when someone out of obedience to what he believes is his duty, does what he does.

A good news is to be shared, not kept inside. If you do not consider this worthy of acceptance, you are under no obligation to accept it.

Just understand that Christians do this out of obedience to Jesus’ command and commission.

They do it not because they are required to do it, but because it is out of love for their fellowmen. The example of Jesus’ followers is simply to share the message, whether the listener accepts it or not is really up to them.

All we ask is for your understanding as to why we evangelize.

And no, your acceptance or non-acceptance won’t affect our right to believe and worship as we see fit.

That is why America, a traditionally Christian country has always been the most welcoming of the Jews.

[Ancesthntr]

Believe as you wish, I do not share your stated beliefs (except the particular one that says that we are all sinners - that is undoubtedly true). None CAN be perfect - we were quite purposely designed to be very IMperfect, but with the capacity to improve. The extent of one’s improvement, given the totality of one’s upbringing, education and experiences - THAT is the measure of a person’s life, a measure that only G-d Himself can make.

I will not give up the faith of my fathers in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - ever, period. The more that I experience life, and the more that I study these matters, the more that my faith is reinforced. FYI, being told that I cannot have salvation (i.e. I’m going to burn in the fires of Hell, with some big, nasty, horned and hoofed guy in a red suit sticking me with a pitchfork all the time - ha, ha, ha, ha!) without changing my beliefs doesn’t do anything but reinforce those beliefs.

Go in peace.

[Ancesthntr]

I do understand both your sentiments and your motivations. But rare indeed is the person who is trying to convince someone else that his/her entire belief system (and that of their family going back 3,700 years) is utterly wrong, who is also not annoying as Hell. They exist, but are definitely rare. I appreciate your willingness to be delicate about it.

I do have a funny story, though, about a couple of Mormons who knocked on our door once (about 35 years ago). My brother - my very religious brother - answered the door and was talking to them. I was doing homework, and then had to go out for a while. To my surprise, I returned over an hour later and they were STILL talking. 45 minutes later, they finally left. I asked my brother why he bothered, he wasn’t going to change their minds (nor they his). His response was very funny. He said, “Yeah, I know that. But that’s about 2 hours that they wasted with me that they didn’t have to convert anybody else.”

Be well, and keep acting in the decent way that G-d intends us all to do. You do yourself and Him credit, and help to improve this world.

[Hebrews 11:6]

I am earnestly seeking G-d, but that G-d is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I can tell you for a fact that I will never become a believing Christian, or a believing anything else - I was born a Jew, and I will die believing in the faith of my Fathers and doing my (very imperfect) best to live up to its highest ideals and practices.

I doubt that Paul--actually, Saul of Tarsus--would have believed, said, or written anything substantially different than you just did. He could never have anticipated what happened to him, nor I what God worked in me. He is stronger than our strongest beliefs. I've met many who said just what you did and were dumbfounded later at what they came to believe wholeheartedly. You heard it here first! Your wonderful God is not finished with you yet. I am not asking or demanding anything of you, friend. I'm just noticing a pattern I've seen many times. O, how He loves you!

[Ancesthntr]

So, the only question is whether or not Jewish folks consider Christians polytheists and Muzzies monotheists, something a Jewish friend told me but I'm not sure us a universal point of view among Jewish folks.

Yeah, pretty much. It is far from universal (but not among traditional Jews, there that is a pretty cut-and-dried belief); traditional Judaism does not allow Jews to enter a church for that reason. You can enter a mosque (though why you'd WANT to is an entirely different matter).

The reason for this is that Christians worship "the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." Judaism only recognizes one G-d. Though He has many aspects to His "personality" (for a COMPLETE lack of a better word), He is ONE. This is a huge doctrinal difference. The Catholic praying to saints and to Mary is also, uh, problematic for Jews (and, I understand, also for Protestants, but I plead a great lack of certain knowledge).

Very simply, Jews believe Christians are wrong, just as Christians believe that Jews are wrong. I think that you're a polytheist, and are thereby damaging your soul, and you believe that I'm going to Hell for not believing that Jesus is my savior. Wonder of wonders, people don't see eye-to-eye on everything. OK, fine - so let's simply agree to disagree, and move on. So long as neither side prevents the other from doing what they believe is right and moral, there will be no problems HERE.

Now let's find things that we agree with, like "defeating Hillary Clinton in 2016 is the single most important thing that the American public can do."

[af_vet_1981]

Not a Catholic, Not a Protestant because I’m not protesting against Catholics.

I consider myself a scripture believing Christian.

I'm trying to extract enough true information to give you the reason you did not see.
1. Do you regularly assemble with other scripture believing Christians in a formal manner ?
2. If so, Is there any kind whatsoever of a general name associated with said assembly (Assembly of God, Anglican, Brethren, Baptist, Calvary, Church of X, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc.) ?

[sasportas]

I rather doubt your claim to Jewishness is any greater than Paul’s. He was a Jew of Jews, of the tribe of Benjamin. I would dare say, he knew Judaism and the law far better than you, of the strictest sect of Judaism (Pharisee).

He lived two thousand years closer to the truth about this issue (Jews, Gentiles, salvation thought Jesus Christ alone) than you. In fact, he met the issue head to head on the road to Damascus, when he was knocked to the ground and blinded by the brilliance of Christ’s glory, after which encounter becoming the greatest Christian missionary of all time.

You are just a “Johnny come lately” on this issue. You do not know more about it than Paul. He was a Jew too, you know, who lived two thousand years closer to the the truth about Jews, Gentiles, Christ, and salvation, than you.

The issue has never been stated more profoundly, in my opinion, than by Paul in his book of Romans. Why not consider Paul, a fellow Jew, and what he had to say about it?

[Ancesthntr]

I am no more - and no less - a Jew than any Jew who ever lived, lives or will live. My degree of religiosity and knowledge - well, that’s a different matter.

Do I know the future for sure? Nope. But neither do you. Maybe you’ll be like the high-ranking Vatican priest that my brother in Israel knows, who converted to Judaism because of what he found in the Vatican archives, and now lives as an extremely Orthodox Jew?

So, Saul of Tarsus converted - big deal. It doesn’t affect me at all. That said, if G-d wants me to do something for Him, then He knows how to locate me...but I have no illusions about my importance or influence beyond my family and immediate circle of friends and acquaintances. I’ll just keep doing what I’ve been doing, and as I suspect you will also do - which is to say, doing the best you can to live according to my/your morality, and hoping to influence others to emulate us by our example.

[Georgia Girl 2]

We get the Jehovah Witnesses all the time here. Mr. GG2 a Messianic Jew and bible scholar will go out on the front porch and talk to them and they finally just leave shaking their heads as they cannot properly respond to his dialogue. He is very well versed on the Jehovah Witnesses and its a scream.

[fahraint]

After reviewing the comments on this thread, I highly respect you and your commitment to the G_d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and wish you to know that as a Gentile Christian, understand the wrongs that Christians have visited on your heritage over the previous centuries. I also understand that G_d does not change, and will fulfill the promises of His Everlasting Covenant to His chosen people, Amiyim, the apple of His eye.....that said, I expect that you and I are both waiting for Messiah, the one in Zechariah 12 and 14.....the difference being that I think I know His name! If I am wrong, I will go with whoever it is, and if you are wrong, you will go with me!

[sasportas]

Thanks to another Jew, we can know the future. He wrote about the New Jerusalem, among other future things, in particular Christ’s ultimate victory over all enemies.

I’m “talkin’ ‘bout John the revelator”...and Christ’s “feet like brass, eyes like fire,” prophetic of his second coming. Here’s an old spiritual by that name:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxI1iywq6V0

The lyrics:

Upon the Isle of Patmos
A man was cast one day
As he was left alone to die
He began to pray
The Holy Ghost came on him
The Spirit, it came down
He began to write about the things he saw
The Revelator’s name was John

Chorus:
Talkin’ ‘bout John the revelator
he saw Jerusalem coming down
Yes it was John the Revelator
And when he looked around
He saw feet like brass
Eyes like fire
Heard a great voice saying
Come up higher
He was John the Revelator
He wrote about the city of God

[fahraint]

I have been studying the Book of Enoch, which was widely admired back in the day, and of which fragments were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls....I am fascinated with the descriptions of the “Son of Man”, and his role.....

[SeekAndFind]

RE: I’m trying to extract enough true information to give you the reason you did not see.

Do not see what?

RE: Do you regularly assemble with other scripture believing Christians in a formal manner ?

The scriptures tell us to, so YES.

RE: If so, Is there any kind whatsoever of a general name associated with said assembly (Assembly of God, Anglican, Brethren, Baptist, Calvary, Church of X, Lutheran, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc.) ?

ANY ONE OF THE ABOVE, as long as they sincerely believe that the Bible is the word of God. As long as they to the historic creeds of the Christian faith.

[af_vet_1981]

Do not see what?

I was certain it was you who wrote "I see no reason why one should consider it being hostile to Jews to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them."

You further hitched yourself to the wagon with:

"ANY ONE OF THE ABOVE, as long as they sincerely believe that the Bible is the word of God. As long as they to the historic creeds of the Christian faith."

Thus are you left in communion with the original German author and architect of the Holocaust, and you do see no reason why one should consider it being hostile to Jews to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to them.

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

* * *

But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.

* * *

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.

* * *

I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated. "

* * *

My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.

[Read Write Repeat]

So, the only question is whether or not Jewish folks consider Christians polytheists and Muzzies monotheists, something a Jewish friend told me but I'm not sure us a universal point of view among Jewish folks.

We really don't care either way (unless someone is trying to kill us). All righteous have a place in Olam Ha Ba. That's my interpretation from study. Jews debate.

Torah teaches us worshipping flesh is forbidden as are all forms of idolatry.

[Cvengr]

I am earnestly seeking G-d, but that G-d is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

We are fooling ourselves if we call God, by the name G-d, and clarify His identity as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, because His name includes His authority and character, which is Provided in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was given faith by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Many racially Jewish Hebrews today assert Jesus Christ could not be who He claimed, because God is Spirit. This is errant because He chooses where He will dwell and the Incarnation was the indwelling of God in man. This is not understood, except by the believer, because the unbeliever lacks the perception of spiritual things as the natural man.

Prior to the Incarnation, God embued His Spirit upon some believers, but His dwelling place was also identified by His Shekinah Glory.

In the Church Age, after Jesus Christ was resurrected and Ascended to Heaven, God the Holy Spirit was sent to convict us of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He indwells every believer today.

Those who truly seek to worship the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob may do so only by recognizing and placing faith alone in what He has provided for our Perfect Sacrifice. Once that faith is placed, and we recognize and place our sins on His Perfect Sacrifice, then God is free in His perfect Holiness (His righteousness and Justice) to provide a regenerated human spirit in the believer and in there He indwells.

The Holy Spirit is required for the further sanctification of the believer, which is not possible without God performing His work of faith in us.

We then study His Word, so that God the Holy Spirit may use that faith (doctrine) in our soul and form it into wisdom, slowly sanctifying our heart.

Rely on what He Provides, His Authority, and His Law by which we may abide in one another through faith and love of our brother. (Interestingly, the 3 things He maintained in the Arc of the Covenant.)

The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit in believers isn't unique to the Church Age. In the Millennial Reign, He will only indwell the Jewish believers.

[Ancesthntr]

Thanks for your kind words and thoughts. I think that we can both agree that G-d is very understanding and forgiving, and that if we (or anyone else, for that matter) lives a basically decent and moral life (and our moralities are necessarily very similar), then we will be forgiven our mistakes. We may differ as to the particulars of that, but that it will occur is, IMHO, beyond a doubt.