Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

[editor-surveyor]

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>> “ If anyone’s name was not found written IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” <<

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This is why the book of life had to be opened. Nobody at the GWT will be written in that book. They will experience the second death.

[editor-surveyor]

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>> “Now why didn’t I know that???” <<

English a second language? :o)

[Grateful2God]

Alex, it isn't intended to knock. The fact of the matter is that we believe differently on this issue. I've often asked questions in forum, because I was not aware that fellow Christian brethren believed what is mentioned above. My non-Catholic friends and i simply state what we believe as just that: our particular beliefs, but I never knew others didn't believe in saints until I got here.

In all honesty, your posts calling other non-Catholic, or ex-Catholic friends are usually among the first in the thread in these discussions. Please understand when it's the other way around, that we Catholics defend our beliefs against attack. Harm is not meant, but differences are a fact of life. May God give peace to you and yours!

[Grateful2God]

Conjuring up the dead, as Saul with the Witch of Endor, is forbidden.

[Alex Murphy]

Alex, it isn't intended to knock. The fact of the matter is that we believe differently on this issue.

When non-Catholics discuss how Catholics "believe differently", the posts/threads/posters are derided as being "virulently/rabidly anti-Catholic". A subset of Catholics goes further, and claims that Catholics never discuss the beliefs of Protestants. As this thread demonstrates, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I've often asked questions in forum, because I was not aware that fellow Christian brethren believed what is mentioned above. My non-Catholic friends and i simply state what we believe as just that: our particular beliefs, but I never knew others didn't believe in saints until I got here.

[Grateful2God]

Is one who leaves because they felt nothing, or felt they didn't get anything out of it, qualified to judge the quality of another's catechesis? When I was a child, I spoke as a child. Perhaps when a person finds something new and is more willing to put in the time and effort, one believes they have found what they are searching for.

Good catechesis teaches that we, as Catholics, are to thank, praise, know, love and serve Jesus with our bodies, minds, hearts and souls, together with others, loving God, and loving our neighbors -including our enemies. And that isn't even touching the surface.

What one believes to be error can be another's whole reason for living. We should each be free to choose without pressure. And without derision.

Differences will always exist; they can be stated intelligently. "I believe" is a non-threatening, non-imposing way to state one's case. The other person has a God-given right to seek and find his own truth, a free will that God Himself does not deny His children as many here have.

[Grateful2God]

Physically dead, but with an immortal soul.

[Grateful2God]

When non-Catholics discuss how Catholics "believe differently", the posts/threads/posters are derided as being "virulently/rabidly anti-Catholic".

Padawan says, sadly, they often are.

[Grateful2God]

Physically dead, but with an immortal soul."

Where is that soul between death and the Final Resurrection?

[BlueDragon]

Some are; some aren't. It's what they believe; it is part of their religious DNA.

A Catholic Timeline of Events Relating to Jews, Anti-Judaism, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust From the 3rd Century to the Beginning of the Third Millennium Prepared by Jerry Darring

Are Traddie Catholics Anti-Semitic? by Fr. Dwight Longenecker

As you had said previously "The Catholic Catechism, on the other hand, teaches otherwise..."

Here of late. But not all that well -- and certainly not consistently, historically speaking.

"...and I am grateful not to be in an antiSemitic faith community."

[Grateful2God]

Doesn't that tell you that it was Catholic thread for a Catholic audience? Count how many of the first 25 were non-Catholic posts telling us we are wrong. Later on will come the ubiquitous post that we Catholics are damned to hell with all the non-Christians.

BTW, the Catholic Church does not teach that:

From: Lumen Gentium: "Light of Nations"

The Second Vatican Council speaks of salvation outside the Church in Lumen Gentium, nos. 14 and 16. Here are the pertinent sections from those two articles: 14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. [. . .] 16. [. . .] Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.

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As to the posts, observe not only the quantity, but the quality of the anti-Catholic posts. Name-calling; focusing constantly on chosen verses to justify the un Christian nature of the attitude toward Catholics; the side-bars with private jokes. And please do not tell me it is all out of love and concern for our souls, as the statement is frequently made that all but the "saved" or the"believers" are damned. There are too many whose posts reflect a morbid delight that the remainder of the world will spend eternity in hell.

My apologies to all non Catholic FReepers who are here for discussion; who are polite and kind and who state their beliefs simply and gently, without judgement. I have learned from you, and enjoy our discussions.

May God bless ALL our FReepers, without exception- and may we all rejoice one day together in Heaven!

[Grateful2God]

Reading the minds of 1.2 billion people? How does one truly know the state of another’s soul? That is between the person and God. Even then, in His Eternal Wisdom, it is He Who knows the ultimate truth.

[af_vet_1981]

Yes, I have posted Jerry's timeline before. I find Protestantism's standard defense of it's historical and persistent antisemitism is that it is always someone else's fault and I'm not persuaded that is the case. I find that Catholics are the most genuine friends Jews have among Christians, although there are always exceptions to the rule.

Personally, I was especially moved by Pope John Paul II, of blessed memory, as well as particular Catholics. There were particular Protestants whose kindness I treasure.

After his election as pope in October 1978, John Paul often devoted his energy to improving relations between Jews and Catholics. He frequently met with Jewish leaders, repeatedly condemned anti-Semitism, commemorated the Holocaust, and established diplomatic relations with Israel.

One of his first acts toward reconciliation occurred during his visit to Poland in 1979 when he knelt and prayed at Auschwitz. Seven years later, on April 13, 1986, he made an even more dramatic trip, this one just across the Tiber River, to Rome’s Great Synagogue, becoming the first pope to visit a Jewish house of worship. There he warmly embraced Rome’s chief rabbi, Elio Toaff, and described Jews as the “elder brothers” of Christians.

“In his speech, everyone felt his love, his affection,” Toaff recalled. “He made a tie between Judaism and Christianity and, in doing so, he found a way to move us all.’

On the 50th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, Pope John Paul II issued this appeal:

As Christians and Jews, following the example of the faith of Abraham, we are called to be a blessing to the world (cf. Gen. 12:2 ff.). This is the common task awaiting us. It is therefore necessary for us, Christians and Jews, to be first a blessing to one another (L'Osservatore Romano, August 17, 1993).

In 1994, John Paul established full diplomatic ties between the Vatican and Israel. He said, “For the Jewish people who live in the State of Israel and who preserve in that land such precious testimonies to their history and their faith, we must ask for the desired security and the due tranquillity that are the prerogative of every nation . . .”

The Pope also was instrumental in the publication of “We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah,” the 1998 document expressing the Church's “deep sorrow for the failures of her sons and daughters in every age.”

He visited Israel in 2000, publicly apologizing for the persecution of Jews by Catholics over the centuries, including the Holocaust, and depositing a note pleading for forgiveness in a crack in the Western Wall.

[Grateful2God]

No, you don’t see praise, joy, love or any such thing in these posts. It’s about presumed salvation, gloating over the “unsaved” etc. Anybody ever thank Jesus here for their presumed assured salvation? Some are humble and kind, but basically, what we get here is a childish, playground-bully atmosphere of “I’m saved and you’re not!!!

[Gamecock]

*** I find that Catholics are the most genuine friends Jews have among Christians, although there are always exceptions to the rule. ***

Exceptions?

BULL! Papal Bull that is. List of Papal Bulls on Jewish Question.

If the Papists are playing nice with the Jews it is a recent development.

[BlueDragon]

Doesn't that tell you that it was Catholic thread for a Catholic audience?

Then take it elsewhere. This is FreeRepublic -- not catholicculture.

Welcome to Free Republic!

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Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!

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As to the posts, observe not only the quantity, but the quality of the anti-Catholic posts. Name-calling;

I've been here for a long time. Many years.
Over the years I've not noticed all that much objection to quantity and "poor quality" of anti-Protestant commentary. Many threads originated by FRomans do appear to be simply that--- anti-Protestant, as are loads of 'comments'.

In fact, that (posting anti-Protestant claims) is often as rewarded and agreed to in "side-bars" -- including some of the very worst of it.

Recently though there has been some uptick of rebuttal threads themselves. If that is not to anyone's liking, then visit the gift shop on the way out the door and pick up some cheese to go with the whine.

"...focusing constantly on chosen verses to justify the un Christian nature of the attitude toward Catholics; the side-bars with private jokes."

Can you tell the difference between scripture passages which can serve as form of check & test in opposition to particular aspects of [Roman] Catholic theological positions, and statements made against 'Catholic' persons themselves?

How about determining the difference between opposing what a person does or says in comparison to a thing being mere insult?

If so, then apply that process as equitably to those whom criticize this or that which may be found within Roman Catholicism as one might to those whom seek to defend Roman Catholicism.

Let us focus one moment upon this one portion of Lumen Gentium;

Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation.

And just who or what is this "Church" being spoken of -- but from RCC perspective -- itself, chiefly and alone?

The above passage also makes it out to be that *they" are Jesus Himself -- thus God.

Mankind should never take a seat in the Temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The secularist humanist do that very thing in their own way.

I reject both approaches in that I will follow neither of those ways...

It is simple.

We are not Him, and He is not ourselves, although He can be within ourselves, and ourselves within Himself, by Spirit, the Holy Spirit. John 14

[BlueDragon]

The point was that historically the RCC from highest levels on down has not consistently been all that much of a friend to Jewry, and at times very much a Jew's persecutor.

I find Protestantism's standard defense of it's historical and persistent antisemitism is that it is always someone else's fault and I'm not persuaded that is the case.

Some may engage in that sort of projection (of their own faults upon others) but by and large they can hardly hold a candle to what occurred within Roman Catholicism for long centuries.

And now here it seemed to myself that you had been engaging in "projecting" antisemitism onto "protestants" while failing to recognize what there was of that commonly enough among [Roman] Catholics!

Just wowza' man. The pointing finger has multiple friends curled back pointing towards it's master.

[af_vet_1981]

*** I find that Catholics are the most genuine friends Jews have among Christians, although there are always exceptions to the rule. *** Exceptions?

Yes, I am not aware of any Protestant faith group as friendly with the Jews as Catholics although I allow for exceptions. Trying to blame Catholicism for Protestant antisemitism is unpersuasive. If it were so, the solution today is still obvious: listen to the Pope when he says, "Every Christian must be firm in deploring all forms of anti-Semitism, and in showing their solidarity with the Jewish people."

[Elsie]

Nobody at the GWT will be written in that book.

Oh?

Says who?

[Elsie]

Hoosier was first...