Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

[NYer]

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)

1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,

And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)

2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:

In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).

Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:

For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.

Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:

Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.

But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)

3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:

So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 

Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):

But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!

[Resettozero]

Okay. But please cease from pinging me to posts that don’t involve me. Thanks.

[CynicalBear]

Nothing there indicates that God said He would be the God of Ishmael.

[rwa265]

Wouldn’t binary 511 be 111111111?

[Iscool]

We can accomplish miraculous things in the world by merging our faiths, and the time for such a movement is now. No longer shall we slaughter our neighbors over differences in reference to their God.”

Their pope then should have no problem in encouraging all religions to join the Baptist church...

[BlueDragon]

"...and I am grateful not to be in an antiSemitic faith community."

Then what would you call the likes of this;

The Council of Jamnia was 1) started in strong part to deal with the Christian heresy;

Is it "anti-semiticism"? I know it to be false presentation of the more basic and fundamental facts.

Do you understand the accusation there? It conveys the notion that the Jews stripped out books of scripture (ha! as if they would do that!) from what would equate to idea or concept of 'canon' ---because of Christians, and no other reason.

Of course the real truth is that the religious authorities of Jerusalem did not and had never presented books of Apocrypha as being accepted as Holy Writ.

The written testimony of Josephus establishes that the Jews did not have a loose, undefined collection of writings which they considered as their canon, but rather they had a certain and firm number of writings. Josephus directly addresses that point.

As far as anti-Jewish sentiment ---- that began long ago within Catholicism.

Steps are being taken now to combat that. It is true that it could be said that anti-antisemitism was not always universal within the Christian Church, although I've come across expressions which could be seen as 'anti-Jewish' beginning right about the time those of the Church began to speak ill of Jews somewhat indiscriminately for reason that the seeming mainstream of Jewish religious teaching and subsequent mindset continued to outwardly express rejection of the one known of as "Jesus" was the promised Messiah, and as begotten Son of God was thus God himself also, come to the world in the flesh ---- Immanuel, God with us.

As for the Church of Rome in particular, it most certainly cannot be said that there has never been anti-Jewish sentiment. The first Jewish ghetto was in Rome, created (and later enforced) under guidance & orders of the Church of Rome.

That one individual here spoke briefly of Jews lacking a saving God (that was much how that was phrased, correct?) does not equate with being anti-semiticism, but rather was speaking towards theological understandings and the very basis of faith itself.

As it is written;

Acts 4

11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’[a] 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus.

My own view tends towards some amount of generosity (as much as possible whenever possible) to be extended to those of Jewish faith today ---- most particularly and first for those of them who grasp the spirit of the Law and thus recognize (if but through a glass darkly, as Paul wrote of Christians themselves, 1 Corithinians 13) just who the heavenly Creator is.

There could as well be (something of a minority?) among Muslims, who despite the wholesale distortions which Mohammed foisted upon what he had hi-jacked from Judaism & Christianity and re-worded, claiming it to be his own revelation -- some still seem to understand such basics as what Christ spoke towards as being that upon which hangs all the law and all the prophets.

Some get it (at times and places) despite the clouds of oratory and *extra* law gone on about in many, many words by their Immans. Even so --- by philosophy and understanding of principles alone none can be saved. It is simply not enough -- to better than the worst one can be.

But now evangelical types are being categorized by yourself as anti-semitic?

I saw the whole thing. It's awfully thin gruel to now be used as a slathering put-down which could be also characterized as "oh, at least I'm not anti-semitic (like you guys)".

That sort of posturing is as 'helpful' to discussion as the charge of racism hurled at those who dare criticism Obama is.

[BlueDragon]

Their pope then should have no problem in encouraging all religions to join the Baptist church...

That's funny, but we know what the answers to that would be like.

We've been seeing them in close detail for year after year on this forum.

No matter what the objection to ultimately -- surrendering to Romish popey-dopey blathering "just think of it like this" regarding any particular issue or theological framework, all the rest of the ceaseless RCC promotion does come across as a siren-song of sorts, a come into my parlor said the spider to the fly, although there are also Roman Catholics who seem to be ok with the recognition that not all are going to submit themselves to the tender (and in past ages at times murderous) mercies of 'Rome' for hosts of reasons.

Ratzinger page 202,

But we can define the required action even more clearly in terms of the above diagnosis. It means that the Catholic does not insist on the dissolution of the Protestant confessions and the demolishing of their churches but hopes, rather, that they will be strengthened in their confessions and in their ecclesial reality.

He's trying to let go of those things which separate, yet the RCC won't let him (he is a prisoner of 'Roman' Catholicism...in all of his thinking, much as he himself remarked that Luther was) in end results himself not capable of letting go of all of Romish types of thing (such as "papacy" as that known of among those of the Church of Rome) even as seeming to my own eye as desiring to distance himself from the past excesses of it. (pages 185, and 195-198).

[Resettozero]

Acts 4:
11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Peter here was preaching about the Lord Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Christian faith. Peter said the that Lord Jesus Christ had become the chief cornerstone for a building the Jewish builders had rejected to continue constructing.

Cornerstone of what building?

Jesus' Church on Planet Earth.

Not Peter's own local Jerusalem congregation.

Not Peter's Roman Catholic church.

Selah.

Thanks for the Scripture that reminds me to avoid spiritual pride in anything I might do or say regarding Christ's own Church which is built on Jesus Christ and Him alone, not the wrongly-constructed Jewish (or Roman Catholic) added religious rules and traditions.

[smvoice]

"Jesus' Church on planet Earth".

I love this post. And you're right, He did have a church on planet Earth, the Kingdom Church, which John the Baptist preached on, Christ preached about, the 12 Apostles preached about, and the complete actualization of Peter actually offered to Israel on the day of Pentecost. If only they had accepted Christ He would have returned and set up His kingdom and all the OT prophesies would have been fulfilled along with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. With Peter and the 11 ruling with Him on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. But know that did not happen.

Which brings us to 1 Cor. 3:10-15. The foundation that was given to Paul to lay by God. God called him a wise masterbuilder. It cannot be the Kingdom Church, given to Peter and the 11 to build upon, with Christ as the cornerstone. Paul says he was specifically given this foundation to lay according to the grace of God. Christ was and is the cornerstone of the Kingdom Church and the Church that Paul was tasked to lay, The Church the Body of Christ, located in the heavenlies with Christ as its head and founded solely on the grace of God. Not convenants or prophecies. There is a heavenly Church, the Church the Body of Christ, and there was and will be again, an earthly Church, the Kingdom Church. Both built with the Cornerstone being Jesus Christ. One with heavenly promises and inheritances, and the other with earthly promises and inheritances.

"In the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH." (Gen. 1:1). The very first scripture in His word tells us He created both for His reason and purpose.

[editor-surveyor]

Yer right.

[editor-surveyor]

.
The “head of the corner” is the top of the pyramid.
.

[af_vet_1981]

But now evangelical types are being categorized by yourself as anti-semitic?

Some are; some aren't. It's what they believe; it is part of their religious DNA. I expect the here are many here who agree with Bailey Smith and some who do not.

"It's interesting to me at great political battles how you have a Protestant to pray and a Catholic to pray and then you have a Jew to pray," Smith stated. "With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew. For how in the world can God hear the prayer of a man who says that Jesus Christ is not the true Messiah? It is blasphemy. It may be politically expedient, but no one can pray unless he prays through the name of Jesus Christ."

Although the remark went little noticed at the time, a few weeks later controversy erupted after it received public attention. Ronald Reagan, then the Republican presidential candidate, who had spoken at the same rally the day before Smith, faced questions about if he agreed with the statement.

"No," Reagan stated. "Since both the Christian and Judaic religions are based on the same God, the God of Moses, I'm quite sure those prayers are heard. But I guess everyone can make his own interpretation of the Bible, and many individuals have been making differing interpretations for a long time." - See more at: http://www.ethicsdaily.com/anniversary-of-bailey-smiths-harmful-moment-in-baptist-jewish-relations-cms-16564#.dpuf You wrote that you believe Jews do have a God, so you need not worry.

[Resettozero]

Thanks, Chief, for providing me with another way of looking at something I’ve seen only poorly through a smoked window. I intend to seek prayerful guidance as I consider in the days ahead what you have just posted on FR.

R2z

[Resettozero]

If you are building a pyramid, you could try laying the chief cornerstone on the top and last of all.

But I think this particular Scriptural Chief Cornerstone is foundational.

[BlueDragon]

There will be always at the least --- some remnant.

Elijah thought himself alone as he was hiding there in a cave.

The Lord told Elijah plainly that was not so.

Yet still there are many who reject Jesus in word and deed -- just as there are those who affirm in word yet do not do the work.

The two sons parable explains it.

It is things of that nature which brought me many years ago to this way of looking at it.

The RCC does not speak for myself. I arrived where I have without having followed instruction from (post Vatican II) "there".

It didn't take me centuries to get there, either.

Some people are naturals...hehhehheh.

D'jah hear the one about the difference between Jewish babies and Catholic babies?

Jewish babies are born with guilt, Catholic babies have to go to Catechism school and learn it.

You wrote that you believe Jews do have a God, so you need not worry.

And the other soul here who wrote concerning lack of a saving God has nothing to worry about either.

[af_vet_1981]

Nothing there indicates that God said He would be the God of Ishmael.

False; God sent his angel to name the boy after himself. Abraham prayed for Ishmael and God heard him. Although God would not use Ishmael as the father of Israel, God did bless him and deliver him. Abraham circumcised Ishmael. Read about it in Genesis.

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham. And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.
Genesis, Catholic chapter seventeen, Protestant verses eighteen to twenty,
Genesis, Catholic chapter twenty one, Protestant verses nine to twenty six,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[editor-surveyor]

No, the scripture is speaking of the head stone, the most prominent part of the structure.

Foundations do not have a single corner stone, they have at least four of them.
.

[Resettozero]

I can see that what you say may be true. Yet, how does one build a building from the top down...?

Gotta give this post also some extra consideration.

G’night.

[Resettozero]

Yet, how does one build a building from the top down...?

...Unless...the pyramid is upside down.

Gotta go. need sleep badly.

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz...

[editor-surveyor]

Its not about how the building was built, its about mastery and prominence.

Read the sentence a few times until the meaning comes through.He came out on top is the point.

[5thGenTexan]

Thank you for the comment.

I am looking from the outside in, but one thing does stand out in my mind in this prayer and in discussions of prayers with my Catholic friends: you ask Mary and the Saints to pray to God for you, not you praying to God directly. The way I see it, the veil has been lifted; we no longer need to approach God thru intermediaries like the High Preists or the Saints. We are told to boldly go directly to the Throne ourselves.

I do get that intercessory prayer is important. Praying for each other here is a bonding opportunity between the members of the Body of Christ. We gain intimacy with each other by sharing those personal moments of praise and sorrow. God wants us to grow closer together as a body and praying for each other helps accomplish this goal.

I just don't see how praying to those who have gone to Heaven before us accomplishes anything for the Body of Christ. Thank you again for the discussion.