Posted on 03/24/2015 1:30:58 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It has been argued that “Mary is the creature closest to God. Moreover, while Christ is the mediator of all grace between God and creation, Mary is the mediator of all grace between Christ and humanity. Consequently, Mary is a powerful intercessor for all who turn to her” (see Zoltan, 1994, emp. added). The Bible clearly teaches that Mary is not Deity and should not be worshipped as such (see Pinedo, 2009). If she is not Deity, is she the closest human being to Deity? Does she play an active role in heaven, interceding for individual Christians? Does she make intercession for us in prayer or have an effect on our salvation?
When referring to Deity, the Bible mentions only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; cf. Matthew 3:16-17; John 10:30; 17:21; Acts 5:3-4). Mary is never mentioned in that context. Further, the heaven where God and His angels reside (Deuteronomy 10:14; 26:15; 1 Kings 8:27,30) is not yet inhabited by human beings. Jesus said: “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man” (John 3:13, emp. added). These words represent the truth about all the people who have left this world (including Mary). No one is in heaven because heaven is reserved for all faithful servants of God since time began (cf. John 14:1-3). Not until after the Second Coming of Christ and the final Judgment will it become home for the faithful, both living and dead (Matthew 25:31-46;
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
The idea that Mary occupies a special place in heaven, close to the Son, is a tradition. It shows a lack of understanding concerning biblical teachings on the afterlife. In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus explained that the dead (saved and lost) go to a place called “hades” (16:23, Hebrew sheol)—a spiritual waiting place that separates the consolation of the righteous (referred to as “paradise,” cf. Luke 23:43) from the torment of the wicked. In hades, the righteous begin to taste part of the joy that awaits them in eternity, while the wicked begin to taste part of the suffering that awaits them. Hades is not the dwelling place of God; God dwells in heaven. Mary, along with Abraham and other faithful servants from the past, is waiting in hades until its dead are delivered up, when the Lord returns to judge each man and woman according to his or her works (Revelation 20:13). In this spiritual realm that precedes heaven, there is nothing that those who are there can do for those who are here (Luke 16:27-31).
Catholics have given the title of “Intercessor for the Saints” to Mary, although nowhere in the Bible is it applied to her. “Intercession” means “seeking the presence and hearing of God on behalf of others” (Vine, 1966, 2:267). There are only two areas in which Christians need intercession: salvation and prayers. If Mary is now, or ever has been, involved as “Intercessor for the Saints,” there should be ample evidence in Scripture.
Concerning salvation, the apostle Peter clearly stated that “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12, NASB). Of course, he was referring to Jesus Christ. Paul wrote: “[T]here is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). The Hebrews writer added: “Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He [Jesus] always lives to make intercession for them” (7:25). Jesus is the one and only Mediator (Intercessor) between God and Man, and He lives to continually intercede for those who come to God.
But what about prayer? Does Mary intercede in the prayers of Christians? No, she does not. This intercession also belongs to Jesus. When teaching His disciples to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9), Jesus did not teach them to pray to (or through) Mary. And yet, Catholicism created a prayer—the “Hail Mary”—to include the words “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death.” In John 14:13-14, Jesus declared: “And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it” (cf. John 16:24). Jesus is the only One Who can mediate or intercede in our prayers, since “[a]ll things that the Father has are [His]” (John 16:15). If all things that the Father has are the Son’s, then what is left for Mary?
The prerogative of intercession supposedly given to Mary also is argued from the fact that she “interceded” before Jesus on behalf of a family at a wedding in Cana because the wine was running out during the celebration (John 2:2-3). This simple, solitary, tiny thread of argumentation, lost in a loom of confusion, has been misused extensively by the supporters of Marianism. By going to Jesus with a request for help, Mary was not intervening on behalf of anyone’s spiritual needs; she only reported the situation to Jesus. Moreover, consider Jesus’ response: “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?” (John 2:4). With these words, He emphasized that Mary’s concerns did not dictate His actions. Whatever He did in Cana that day would be according to God’s will, not because of human or motherly influences or desires.
If the situation recorded in John chapter two establishes Mary as the “Intercessor of the Saints,” what should we conclude from Matthew 8:5-13 and other passages that tell of similar circumstances? In Matthew chapter eight, a centurion “interceded” before Jesus for his servant who was in bed, paralyzed, and greatly tormented. Seeing the centurion’s faith, Jesus performed a miracle and cured the sick servant. Should we consider this centurion as the “Intercessor for the Paralytics, the Sick, and the Tormented”? Should any paralytic, or anyone suffering from physical or mental illness, pray to this man of great faith, asking him to intercede with God on their behalf? [The Bible further condemns the act of invoking the dead (cf. Deuteronomy 18:10-13; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; Isaiah 8:19).] Neither this centurion, nor Abraham, nor Mary, nor anyone else—living or dead—can intercede before the throne of God in favor of the faithful Christian, except Jesus Christ Himself.
In Luke 1:47, Mary raised her voice and declared: “My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (emp. added). If she had a Savior, then she needed salvation. And, if she needed salvation, then she also needed the only Intercessor of salvation—Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:25). Therefore, Mary’s condition was no different from every human being before or after her. She sinned (Romans 3:23), and she needed the only Intercessor who could make peace between her and God (2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Colossians 1:20). Just as Jesus “interceded” on behalf of Mary before He died to make sure her physical needs were met (John 19:26-27), He interceded on her behalf to make sure her spiritual needs were met. Mary cannot intercede for any Christian since she, herself, needed intercession.
Finally, although Christians are commanded to pray for one another (1 Thessalonians 5:25; Hebrews 13:18; James 5:16), Jesus is our only Mediator in prayer. Through Him our prayers are answered.
Pinedo, Moisés (2009), “Is Mary the Mother of God?” [On-line], URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/240077.
Vine, W.E. (1966), An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell).
Zoltan, Abraham (1994), “A Detailed Guide to Our Lady’s Rosary,” [On-line], URL: http://www.blessedtrinityorlando.org/rosary.html.
You make me laugh.
I get my posts deleted, but others on “your side” can make whatever derogatory comments about other posters faith.
What if someone called YOUR chosen faith a cult.
God Bless you. I will go to sleep now and pray for you and the souls of the intolerant and just nasty little minded people on this forum.
Posting scripture is generally out of context and used to manipulate an argument. Without the context, they are unimpressive.
And, I find them tedious.
How do you know I wasn’t around to argue with Paul. What if I believe, like the early church believed, in reincarnation.
But I think you are missing my point.
All I am asking is to be tolerant that others may not agree or believe as you do. Tone is important. Religion discussions are defeated when one side speaks in absolutes. Especially when the two side agree on the ultimate conclusion of the discussion, and that is that Jesus is THE one, and HE is our salvation.
If you are not comfortable with that style of debate then IGNORE "open" RF threads altogether and instead post to RF threads labeled "Caucus" "Ecumenical" "Prayer" or "Devotional."
Click on my profile page for more guidelines to the Religion Forum, including how to ignore the RF altogether if you would prefer.
His request took place in space-time. I have never considered praying for Paul NOW. He’s saved and secure, no need.
Taking scripture out of context is an old trick. It is used like a stick.
A real conversation states a personal point. Tossing three quotes pulled out of a huge text, without surrounding context does nothing to forward a conversation.
Actually the earliest Gospel written was Mark. It was written around 60-70 AD. Christ was crucified 30 AD. So your math is a bit off.
The story is a rough estimate of what happened, adjusted for the audience.
True, it is not a word for word, day to day account of everything Jesus did or said. John tells us that in his gospel. However, it is not a rough estimate. The events we have recorded are facts.
There were literally hundreds of books that could have been included in the bible.
Possibly. But the ones we have were all agreed upon by the early church.
As I said, i don’t care what you think about all of this. I simply think your tone regarding these “discussion” is disrespectful, like your little snipes at the end of your responses. You simply cannot help yourself. You have THE answer, and no one can come to a similar conclusion unless they follow your rules.
Well, for the second time you've said you don't care but you keep coming back. So which is it? You care or you don't care??
If you think my presentation of facts, as opposed to your inaccurate statements, are little snipes, then I can't help that. I will continue to point out inaccuracies when I see them.
Now, regarding "little snipes", we do have this interesting statement from you below. If I recall, you made another such statement in post #31.
I do hope when the judgement comes I can witness the butt whooping you guys get for your poor attitudes.
Now if that isn't expressing love I don't know what is!
Of course, in my world God is love, and even you guys will be forgiven for being little minded and intolerant. I guess we shall see.
My hope for you when the judgment comes is that you are in Heaven.
Been good talking to you. I shall not reply to any of your further posts on this thread.
I know the rules. I simply wish they were applied to the people who post nasty comments directed at the previous writer.
I guess what I am asking, in public, is for you to do your job in a respectful and even handed manner.
I am not kidding when I write that Free Republic has become the “Kick a catholic” forum. And the moderators simply allow it to happen.
The statement contradicts itself. Scripture or this author, which is it? How does one decide?
. The Annunciation is the moment when our Lady is given to know the vocation which God planned for her from eternity. When the archangel sets her mind at ease by saying, “Do not be afraid, Mary,” he is helping her to overcome that initial fear which a person normally experiences when God gives him or her a special calling. The fact that Mary felt this fear does not imply the least trace of imperfection in her: hers is a perfectly natural reaction in the face of the super- natural. Imperfection would arise if one did not overcome this fear or rejected the advice of those in a position to help — as St. Gabriel helped Mary.
31-33. The archangel Gabriel tells the Blessed Virgin Mary that she is to be the Mother of God by reminding her of the words of Isaiah which announced that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, a prophecy which will find its fulfillment in Mary (cf. Matthew 1:22-23; Isaiah 7:14). He reveals that the Child will be “great”: His greatness comes from His being God, a greatness He does not lose when He takes on the lowliness of human nature. He also reveals that Jesus will be the king of the Davidic dynasty sent by God in keeping with His promise of salvation; that His Kingdom will last forever, for His humanity will remain forever joined to His divinity; that “He will be called Son of the Most High”, that is that He really will be the Son of the Most High and will be publicly recognized as such, that is, the Child will be the Son of God.
God chose to be born of a virgin; centuries earlier He disclosed this through the prophet Isaiah (cf. Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:22-23). God, “before all ages made choice of, and set in her proper place, a mother for His only-begotten Son from whom He, after being made flesh, should be born in the blessed fullness of time: and He continued His persevering regard for her in preference to all other crea- tures, to such a degree that for her alone He had singular regard” (Pius IX, “Inef- fabilis Deus,” 2). This privilege granted to our Lady of being a virgin and a mother at the same time is a unique gift of God. This was the work of the Holy Spirit “who at the conception and the birth of the Son so favored the Virgin Mother as to impart fruitfulness to her while preserving inviolate her perpetual virginity” (”St. Pius V Catechism,” I, 4, 8). Paul VI reminds us of this truth of faith: “We believe that the Blessed Mary, who ever enjoys the dignity of virginity, was the Mother of the incarnate Word, of our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (”Creed of the People of God”, 14).
Mary’s resolution to remain a virgin was certainly something very unusual, not in line with the practice of righteous people under the Old Covenant, for, as St. Au- gustine explains, “particularly attentive to the propagation and growth of the peo- ple of God, through whom the Prince and Savior of the world might be prophesied and be born, the saints were obliged to make use of the good of matrimony” (”De Bono Matrimonii”, 9, 9). However, in the Old Testament, there were some who, in keeping with God’s plan, did remain celibate — for example, Jeremiah, Elijah, Eli- seus and John the Baptist. The Blessed Virgin, who received a very special inspi- ration of the Holy Spirit to practise virginity, is a first-fruit of the New Testament, which will establish the excellence of virginity over marriage while not taking from the holiness of the married state, which it raises to the level of a sacrament (cf. “Gaudium Et Spes”, 48).
35. The “shadow” is a symbol of the presence of God. When Israel was journeying through the wilderness, the glory of God filled the Tabernacle and a cloud co- vered the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 40:34-36). And when God gave Moses the tablets of the Law, a cloud covered Mount Sinai (Exodus 24:15-16); and also, at the Transfiguration of Jesus the voice of God the Father was heard coming out of a cloud (Luke 9:35).
Source: “The Navarre Bible: Text and Commentaries”. Biblical text from the Revised Standard Version and New Vulgate. Commentaries by members of the Faculty of Theology, University of Navarre, Spain. Published by Four Courts Press, Kill Lane, Blackrock, Co. Dublin, Ireland, and by Scepter Publishers in the United States.
If one believes he is spirit-filled and thus able to interpret Scripture, and Catholics are criticised by readers for believing that we may lose grace by sin, why, then would one believe that grace would depart from the soul at the body's death? Would it not instead flourish in a soul no longer capable of sin?
It's unusual because there was no pledge on her part to remain a virgin the rest of her life.
The Greek, when describing Jesus and His siblings, tells us she did not remain a virgin.
LOL! It’s obvious to me that you missed the entirety of the “conversation”. There was none. It was simply a tongue in cheek response.
I apologize. I obviously missed the humor.
And I like humor. I will be better next time.
LOL No problem.
“I am not kidding when I write that Free Republic has become the “Kick a catholic” forum. And the moderators simply allow it to happen.”
Posting direct personal or attack posts to individual posters is counter to the guidelines found at my profile page which may be accessed by clicking on my name at the bottom of this post.
Posting negative comments about a faith, ie CatholicISM or ProtestantISM, is allowed.
There are equal “kick a _______” posts, not just only towards Catholics/Catholicism.
If you encounter any posts outside the guidelines, please push the “abuse” button to bring it to our attention.
That's kind of a sweet question. You're justified, sanctified, saved, etc., but also you don't really exist right now." That's at least interesting!
One difficulty is that some make an unjustifiably hard and fast distinction (one which won't withstand scrutiny) between spiritual things and other things. So Mary's coming to IHS about the wine shortage is not "spiritual," though it would seem from the sheep and goats discourse that giving drink to those who lack it is a spiritual act.
The sort of "schematic" account of death until final judgment has a consistency with some Scriptural verses, but seems to gloss over the appearances at the Transfiguration or the conjuring of Samuel's spirit.
And as always, the relationship between time and eternity "always" lurks behind these questions. Does God move in time? How does he "wait"? He's impassible, but can he be impatient? (Little joke there.)
And WHAT did IHS mean when he said "All live to him."
What makes the conversation tricky is that each side will bring different schemata of interpretation, with different assumptions, to the reconciliation of different texts and the derivation of a coherent teaching.
SO the REAL critical work would be, had we the time, to look at both sides for the (often unspoken, sometimes unconscious) assumptions they bring to their hermeneutics.
WRT to [a]: Isn't it more accurate to say that we have no record of any pledge to virginity? Isn't the maxim: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?
WRT [b]: The text refers to siblings. It does not say how those siblings came into the world. I find no verse explicitly saying she had sexual intercourse or that the children were hers by natural birth.
I'm not saying that means we're right. But I am saying that this particular argument against our holding doesn't seem to me to do the job.
The people in the Bible were human beings in real, but sometimes larger-than-life situations. Coming from the old country, my grandparents could empathize with the pain of Joseph's rejection; the hurt his father felt at losing him (they had lost 7 children of their own); the wonder at God's intervention on Joseph's behalf; the bittersweet joy as the brothers and father eventually reunited. These were not one-dimensional people! Throughout the Bible there is so much about the people of God to find in between the lines!
I used to joke with my Mom about the Marriage at Cana. At the age of 12, Jesus stayed behind in the Temple to be about His Father's business- and His mother found Him to bring Him home with Joseph, and He was obedient unto them. Who is it, then, that requests a miracle of Him when He said it was not yet His time? His little Jewish mother. My little Italian mother would have felt the same. Compassion, empathy for the couple; the knowledge and trust that her Son Jesus would not only feel for them also, but would help as only He could. I picture her looking at Him with the loving eyes of a mother, and with just the right inflection in her voice, "They have no wine..." and the parent-to-child eye contact that can speak volumes. The twinkle in His loving eyes as He spoke gently to her that His time hadn't come, as a loving smile began to show Itself on His face. He would do as she asked; she, in turn, instructed the stewards, to do whatever He told them. Imagine the wonder as Our Saviour performed this miracle! How grateful the young couple must have been! The loving, joyful, again bittersweet moment between a mother and Son who loved one another so dearly! The vague sadness at knowing that, from that day forward, things would never be the same. Jesus would no longer be the son at home taking the place of Joseph in the carpenter's shop.
I've known Scripture throughout my life, in this manner. We'd read, discuss, talk about what went on and how it applies in our own lives. St. Jerome did the translating into Latin; I believe in the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition. These people, from Genesis on, were like us in nearly every way, and the good ones are with us spiritually. For my part, I like to appreciate and learn from them the way they are! Thanks for listening; thanks again for the post, and God bless you! 😊
Slight correction to your narrative....both Joseph and Mary were looking for Jesus.
Luke 2:41-48 (NASB) Now His parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42And when He became twelve, they went up there according to the custom of the Feast; 43and as they were returning, after spending the full number of days, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. But His parents were unaware of it, 44but supposed Him to be in the caravan, and went a day’s journey; and they began looking for Him among their relatives and acquaintances. 45When they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem looking for Him. 46Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers. 48When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You.”
Yes, absolutely, as Mary puts it so well, “I rejoice in God my Savior”.
And He had a mother who represents the perfect response to the Gospel. She is the perfect Christian. She is the best example of what we must do. She tells us, “do whatever He tells you.”
With God as our Father, and Jesus as our Brother and Savior, having Mary as our mother is a special treat.
Love is a common good.
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