Posted on 03/24/2015 1:30:58 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It has been argued that “Mary is the creature closest to God. Moreover, while Christ is the mediator of all grace between God and creation, Mary is the mediator of all grace between Christ and humanity. Consequently, Mary is a powerful intercessor for all who turn to her” (see Zoltan, 1994, emp. added). The Bible clearly teaches that Mary is not Deity and should not be worshipped as such (see Pinedo, 2009). If she is not Deity, is she the closest human being to Deity? Does she play an active role in heaven, interceding for individual Christians? Does she make intercession for us in prayer or have an effect on our salvation?
When referring to Deity, the Bible mentions only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; cf. Matthew 3:16-17; John 10:30; 17:21; Acts 5:3-4). Mary is never mentioned in that context. Further, the heaven where God and His angels reside (Deuteronomy 10:14; 26:15; 1 Kings 8:27,30) is not yet inhabited by human beings. Jesus said: “No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man” (John 3:13, emp. added). These words represent the truth about all the people who have left this world (including Mary). No one is in heaven because heaven is reserved for all faithful servants of God since time began (cf. John 14:1-3). Not until after the Second Coming of Christ and the final Judgment will it become home for the faithful, both living and dead (Matthew 25:31-46;
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
The idea that Mary occupies a special place in heaven, close to the Son, is a tradition. It shows a lack of understanding concerning biblical teachings on the afterlife. In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus explained that the dead (saved and lost) go to a place called “hades” (16:23, Hebrew sheol)—a spiritual waiting place that separates the consolation of the righteous (referred to as “paradise,” cf. Luke 23:43) from the torment of the wicked. In hades, the righteous begin to taste part of the joy that awaits them in eternity, while the wicked begin to taste part of the suffering that awaits them. Hades is not the dwelling place of God; God dwells in heaven. Mary, along with Abraham and other faithful servants from the past, is waiting in hades until its dead are delivered up, when the Lord returns to judge each man and woman according to his or her works (Revelation 20:13). In this spiritual realm that precedes heaven, there is nothing that those who are there can do for those who are here (Luke 16:27-31).
Catholics have given the title of “Intercessor for the Saints” to Mary, although nowhere in the Bible is it applied to her. “Intercession” means “seeking the presence and hearing of God on behalf of others” (Vine, 1966, 2:267). There are only two areas in which Christians need intercession: salvation and prayers. If Mary is now, or ever has been, involved as “Intercessor for the Saints,” there should be ample evidence in Scripture.
Concerning salvation, the apostle Peter clearly stated that “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12, NASB). Of course, he was referring to Jesus Christ. Paul wrote: “[T]here is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). The Hebrews writer added: “Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He [Jesus] always lives to make intercession for them” (7:25). Jesus is the one and only Mediator (Intercessor) between God and Man, and He lives to continually intercede for those who come to God.
But what about prayer? Does Mary intercede in the prayers of Christians? No, she does not. This intercession also belongs to Jesus. When teaching His disciples to pray to the Father (Matthew 6:9), Jesus did not teach them to pray to (or through) Mary. And yet, Catholicism created a prayer—the “Hail Mary”—to include the words “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of death.” In John 14:13-14, Jesus declared: “And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it” (cf. John 16:24). Jesus is the only One Who can mediate or intercede in our prayers, since “[a]ll things that the Father has are [His]” (John 16:15). If all things that the Father has are the Son’s, then what is left for Mary?
The prerogative of intercession supposedly given to Mary also is argued from the fact that she “interceded” before Jesus on behalf of a family at a wedding in Cana because the wine was running out during the celebration (John 2:2-3). This simple, solitary, tiny thread of argumentation, lost in a loom of confusion, has been misused extensively by the supporters of Marianism. By going to Jesus with a request for help, Mary was not intervening on behalf of anyone’s spiritual needs; she only reported the situation to Jesus. Moreover, consider Jesus’ response: “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me?” (John 2:4). With these words, He emphasized that Mary’s concerns did not dictate His actions. Whatever He did in Cana that day would be according to God’s will, not because of human or motherly influences or desires.
If the situation recorded in John chapter two establishes Mary as the “Intercessor of the Saints,” what should we conclude from Matthew 8:5-13 and other passages that tell of similar circumstances? In Matthew chapter eight, a centurion “interceded” before Jesus for his servant who was in bed, paralyzed, and greatly tormented. Seeing the centurion’s faith, Jesus performed a miracle and cured the sick servant. Should we consider this centurion as the “Intercessor for the Paralytics, the Sick, and the Tormented”? Should any paralytic, or anyone suffering from physical or mental illness, pray to this man of great faith, asking him to intercede with God on their behalf? [The Bible further condemns the act of invoking the dead (cf. Deuteronomy 18:10-13; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14; Isaiah 8:19).] Neither this centurion, nor Abraham, nor Mary, nor anyone else—living or dead—can intercede before the throne of God in favor of the faithful Christian, except Jesus Christ Himself.
In Luke 1:47, Mary raised her voice and declared: “My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior” (emp. added). If she had a Savior, then she needed salvation. And, if she needed salvation, then she also needed the only Intercessor of salvation—Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:25). Therefore, Mary’s condition was no different from every human being before or after her. She sinned (Romans 3:23), and she needed the only Intercessor who could make peace between her and God (2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Colossians 1:20). Just as Jesus “interceded” on behalf of Mary before He died to make sure her physical needs were met (John 19:26-27), He interceded on her behalf to make sure her spiritual needs were met. Mary cannot intercede for any Christian since she, herself, needed intercession.
Finally, although Christians are commanded to pray for one another (1 Thessalonians 5:25; Hebrews 13:18; James 5:16), Jesus is our only Mediator in prayer. Through Him our prayers are answered.
Pinedo, Moisés (2009), “Is Mary the Mother of God?” [On-line], URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/240077.
Vine, W.E. (1966), An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell).
Zoltan, Abraham (1994), “A Detailed Guide to Our Lady’s Rosary,” [On-line], URL: http://www.blessedtrinityorlando.org/rosary.html.
Greater than Eve. Greater than Sarah. But dear relatives nevertheless.
I don’t have to ask Him re: Mary. I do not need Mary for my salvation, only Yeshua.
So questioning pagan practices of a group is “kicking” them?
If Mary is no closer to God than any other person...
then Jesus isn’t God.
Are you suggesting the divinity of Jesus hinges on acceptance of Mary?
But the way the born agains are all high and mighty, I equate them with Shiites who think they KNOW the way for everyone else.
That sounds a lot like the Catholics when they claim ownership over the Bible and “status” as “the one true church.”
So there isn’t this nonsense you claim about the translator from 500 years ago and 3x translated texts. You display a lack of knowledge of the historical origins of the Bible.
How strange that the Catholics claim to have “written” the Bible yet know so little about how the Bible was translated and continues to be compared to ancient texts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls to verify it’s accuracy.
Please show the scripture that shows the apostles teaching that Mary is the mother of us all.
Really, you come in four days later and you want to get all started up again.
Go sell your intolerant garbage somewhere else. I’m not buying today.
Oral traditions go back thousands of years. Go read Gilgamesh.
Go read about Mithra. Saturnalous.
It’s the message in the story, not the story. You guys should remember that. Instead you get hung up on the “words” not the “word.”
Some FReepers strictly limit their "kick a Catholic," observances to days that end in, "-y".
We reject the Pagan Mary-goddess worship of Catholicism. Many Catholics can’t get over that and make every day “kick Christians day” and pull out their “long knives.”
Funny how all of that seems to work both ways?
The thread came up on the feed. Since the thread was not locked I was able to respond.
If differing perspectives are so bothersome perhaps you’d be better off limiting your activities to the Catholic Caucus threads where you won’t be exposed the opinions of others.
This website is not an “echo chamber.”
I’m not even catholic. I really dont have an opinion either way on their worship of her.
What ticks me off is how others are so intolerant of any other view of religion.
Many on here are so narrow minded and ego centric, they cannot see the forest for these dogmatic trees.
It is as if many of you make yourselves feel better by denigrating someone else. I just don’t understand that.
But I grow tired of hearing the one sided nastiness. The good thing is that most of those people spend all day Sunday rolling around on the ground with snakes and what-not...so we do not have to put up with them online.
Have a blessed day.
This web site is exactly an echo chamber. For the extremists that come on and bash anyone who is not only not in the “right” genus, but who is not in the “correct” species.
The AOG and Non-denominational Christians on this site like nothing more than to spout out and put down any other religion.
It is almost as good a listening to Shiites and Sunni going after each other. I would not be shocked to see those folks start pulling swords to make their points against the Mormon and Catholics. Not to mention what they would really want to do to the Jews—whom you “love” in public, but really hate in private. Been there, seen that.
We are fighting so much evil in this world, I cannot believe that there are so many wasting so much energy promoting who they worship. Those people are the evil ones.
This web site is exactly an echo chamber. For the extremists that come on and bash anyone who is not only not in the “right” genus, but who is not in the “correct” species.
I’ve noticed it’s mostly those “tolerant” Catholics getting their posts deleted by the moderator. Have you criticized any of them?
I don’t think you are where you believe you are. Maybe you ought to go back to your “happy place.” The owner seems to have a very different concept for HIS website.
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Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We’re working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!
It is almost as good a listening to Shiites and Sunni going after each other.
Let me know when you see some stonings or beheadings.
I am right where I think I should be.
I am strong in my faith. I am strong in my moral conviction.
I am a Christian, but not a Catholic.
I AM tolerant and interested in understanding why people do things, why and how religions have evolved. More from a sociological standpoint, rather than a personal salvation standpoint. The more I learn about religious origins the more I am amazed at how some have stayed remarkably close to their roots—and how they have done it
Two examples are Judaism and Islam. The Jews have maintained their structure through strict laws and the process where every member of the church is expected to read Hebrew. In Islam, the same is accomplished by the reading of the Koran in Arabic. Their rigidity is what gives them context. A dog in Arabic in 870 is the same as it is today.
Some might suggest that the religions longevity are due to those restrictions, but that their sizes are limited due to the assimilation of their people into the local culture.
Traditions, language, and culture are very important in the development of religions—and nations for that matter.
Except Christianity. Christ wanted his word spread around the world. So we publish bibles in different languages, from different translations. We read the words and we have to be careful to understand the context in order to understand the meaning.
Over the centuries what Christians have been taught has changed due to language, and cultural context. The message is probably pretty close to what Christ and Paul wanted (as he was the author of most of the significant Christian New Testament (aside from the Gospels of course.)
Today there are as many Christian “sects” as you can count. What I do not understand is why certain parts of that culture cannot tolerate, or as Jesus said, “love”, their enemies or even their neighbors. Its like some members of Christian sects simply cannot help themselves.
I have made no personal attacks on your, but on your “species” of Christianity in general. The intolerance and indignation that spews from you all is interesting. It is certainly not Christian. It would be easy to either explain your views, explain why their’s is wrong, or just be quiet.
Yet, day after day when someone posts any type of religious article that defends or explains an alternative view, you all jump on them, insulting their faith, insulting their religion—even when its a species of the same genus.
Usually, bodies that share a genus (say a wolf and a common dog) can live in peace, while attacking a different genus altogether. For example, how dogs will hate on cats.
But here, the genus “AOG” or any other “born again” denomination or non-denomination cannot see that they are from the same Genus “Christian.” You are animals that do not allow that another species might be more robust, long lasting, or even “right.”
Conservative does not mean intolerant. Conservative does not mean rude. Conservatives allow other religions to live, and thrive, among them.
Conservatives love their Creator. They love their country. They love their families. They are constructive members of their communities. They protect their offspring and the weak.
Yes, I am in the proper place to have discussions and examine alternative views of the world.
Perhaps it is you and yours who have picked the wrong place to express yourself.
When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. [27] After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.
You’re joking right? There is no way that can be made to mean that Mary is the mother of us all.
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Unfortunately, he’s not.
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