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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: ealgeone

I have no opinion because it’s just not that important.

If this bit of Marian doctrine were to be solemnly defined, it would not change the Church’s teaching. It would raise the status of that doctrine.

When the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were solemnly defined (1854, 1950), it represented no change in the Church’s teaching. It was the Pope’s way of emphasizing the dogmas for the age they were living in.


381 posted on 02/27/2015 6:45:20 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan; Elsie
No one has ever offered me a reason (as opposed to a vehement, spittle-flecked assertion) why my mother, when she lived in Baltimore, cared about me and prayed for me, but now that she is in Heaven, doesn’t care about me, and doesn’t pray for me.

I've answered this once, but will do so again. We have no evidence from the NT that we are to pray to our departed loved ones in Heaven nor can they hear us.

Our direction is to pray to God. The Holy Spirit helps us with those prayers.

We are told by the NT writers to pray for each other but those injunctions are to people here on earth. We don't pray to our departed loved ones and ask them to pray for us.

382 posted on 02/27/2015 6:52:54 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
We are told by the NT writers to pray for each other but those injunctions are to people here on earth. We don't pray to our departed loved ones and ask them to pray for us.

Exactly. WE on earth are told to pray for one another.

NOBODY addresses ANY injunctions to people in Heaven, because people in Heaven always do the right thing. Paul's letters were written to Rome, Corinth, etc., but he didn't send any letters to the Christians in Heaven.

If WE the living are enjoined to pray for our fellow Christians, that means that praying for others is the charitable thing to do. The blessed in Heaven are more filled with charity than anyone still living on earth. Thus, the rational presumption is that people in Heaven DO pray for their fellow Christians.

It is irrational to presume that they DON'T pray for their fellow Christians. Why would the blessed in Heaven have LESS love for their fellow Christians than we imperfect people on earth do?

Again, it is irrational believe that my mother who loved me and prayed for me in Baltimore does NOT love me and pray for me now that she is in Heaven, because she loves me MORE now than she did while she was alive.

383 posted on 02/27/2015 7:11:57 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan
Again, it is irrational believe that my mother who loved me and prayed for me in Baltimore does NOT love me and pray for me now that she is in Heaven, because she loves me MORE now than she did while she was alive.

All due respects to your mom,(my mom is in Heaven also), neither one can hear us nor can they communicate with us.

Thus, the rational presumption is that people in Heaven DO pray for their fellow Christians.

It's a nice thought to think our moms are praying for us and I understand that....but that just isn't backed up by the Word.

Using your logic, if they can hear us we should be able to communicate with them in a back and forth dialogue and that just isn't Scriptural. It's wishful thinking.

384 posted on 02/27/2015 7:17:19 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Legatus
The Second Vatican Council reasserted very clearly in the Dogmatic Constitution Dei Verbum: “All that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God” (n. 12).

Nice flowery speech but none of it is biblical...In fact, it's anti-biblical...

As the above mentioned conciliar Constitution reminds us, there is an inseparable unity between Sacred Scripture and Tradition because both come from the same source: “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.

That is impossible because scripture contradicts your tradition every where you turn in the scriptures...

Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit. And Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the Apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

Your Catholic tradition is recorded in your catechism which covers only a fraction of the scriptures...

You have any proof that your traditions comes from God??? No???

It transmits it to the successors of the Apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.

Thus it comes about that the Church does not draw her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scriptures alone. Hence, both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal feelings of devotion and reverence” (ibid., n. 9).

That is why your religion is not the church that Jesus founded...And that is how we know your religion is not the church that Jesus founded...

Scripture tells us that every thing we need to know about salvation is found within the scriptures...Your religion claims that there are things not contained in scripture that are necessary for our salvation in addition to what the scriptures say...That's how we know your religion is a deception...The Holy Spirit hasn't passed ANY tradition on to your religious leaders...

It follows that the exegete must be attentive to perceiving the word of God present in the biblical texts, fitting them into the Church’s faith itself.

Absolutely backwards...The church's faith must be attentive and perceive the words of God present in the biblical texts...That's the difference between the Catholic religion and Christianity...

385 posted on 02/27/2015 8:31:05 PM PST by Iscool
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To: ealgeone

“Logic” does not dictate that if they can hear us, we should be able to hear them. They are with God, enlightened intellectually and otherwise in a manner we cannot imagine.

There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says my mother cannot hear and see me, or that she does not pray for me.

I have seen many Scripture verses about the dead trotted out as though they addressed this question. And they DON’T. They are about the finality of death—from OUR side of the grave. They have nothing to do with the experience of the blessed in heaven.

The only reason modern Protestants think it is self-evident that the dead are DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! is that the reformers wanted to stamp out devotion to the saints. In large part, the motive was to wipe out HOLIDAYS for the serfs. With devotion to the saints stamped out, that made about a hundred more working days a year. And the rich were relieved of subsidizing feasts. Protestants have been relentlessly propagandized on this point until it seems self-evident. But it is entirely irrational to believe that the blessed in Heaven are LESS loving than we are to each other! There is NO Scriptural or rational basis for the belief that they are deaf and blind to us.


386 posted on 02/27/2015 8:47:29 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Iscool

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


387 posted on 02/28/2015 4:31:00 AM PST by rwa265
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To: metmom
We don’t need to *join* a church.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

388 posted on 02/28/2015 4:42:38 AM PST by verga (I might as well be playing Chess with a pigeon.)
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To: Arthur McGowan
In that case, you have completely misunderstood everything I said.

Possibly; but NOT everything the church based in Rome says.

389 posted on 02/28/2015 6:53:10 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Arthur McGowan
No one can be saved without Baptism.

It's hard to misunderstand this.

390 posted on 02/28/2015 6:53:44 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Arthur McGowan
Limbo, a state of natural happiness, without the Beatific Vision. I.e., a place or state that is neither Heaven nor Hell.

Is this something your chosen church teaches?

391 posted on 02/28/2015 6:54:22 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Resettozero
Every Catholic who responded to my post MISSED the point of my question and answered questions I did not ask.

Maybe they were Mormons, posing as Catholics.



 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted
 

If the above link does NOT function; try THIS one.   Click on the second image.
 
http://mormontruthnews.blogspot.com/2006/10/robert-millet-former-dean-of-religious_01.html

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

 
 
 
 
 

392 posted on 02/28/2015 6:56:38 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Arthur McGowan
“Logic” does not dictate that if they can hear us, we should be able to hear them. They are with God, enlightened intellectually and otherwise in a manner we cannot imagine.

There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says my mother cannot hear and see me, or that she does not pray for me.

Then the burden is upon you to show where Scripture does tells us to pray to our departed ones and that they can indeed hear us and do indeed pray for us. It has to be a clear verse and in context of the passage.

The only reason modern Protestants think it is self-evident that the dead are DEAD! DEAD! DEAD! is that the reformers wanted to stamp out devotion to the saints.

You've never heard me say they are dead. We have a number of passages that suggest otherwise. Some passages say they are asleep. Some say they are dead. To be quite honest I'm not sure it matters for believers. Our destination is Heaven...that's all that matters.

Do we have examples of anyone on the NT praying to Moses or Abraham or Elijah?

Now as far as being devoted to the saints, that's where catholicism goes beyond the Word....again. Why should we have devotion to the "saints" as Catholicism has surely redefined the word to mean something other than what the Bible defines it to be? Saints are believers according to Paul.

How about we just stay devoted to Jesus and I think we'll be ok?

393 posted on 02/28/2015 6:59:56 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone
Vegas says no answer!

What happens in Vegas should STAY in Vegas.

394 posted on 02/28/2015 7:18:57 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Arthur McGowan
Maybe because you ask only “gotcha” questions rather than sincere questions.



 

Deconstructing Linus: Portrait of a True Believing Pumpkinist as a Young Man

What does the Great Pumpkin offer Linus? Why does Linus spend every Halloween in the pumpkin patch, waiting for the Great Pumpkin to appear? Is it about the toys?

"Each year on Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch that he thinks is the most sincere and flies through the air with his pack of toys for all the good little children in the world."

No. This is about sincerity, a subjective standard by any definition.

I wonder if Linus blames himself every year for not picking the most sincere pumpkin patch for his vigil?

I wonder if other Great Pumpkinists castigate Linus by asserting if he were more in tune with the Spirit of the Great Pumpkin, if he were more prayerful, if he read the Holy Writ of the Great Pumpkin with a greater sincerity, that he could indeed rise to the challenge and, via the Spirit, be lead to choose the most sincere pumpkin patch?

I wonder how many years Linus will feel guilty for this failure and blame himself for receiving no answer no matter how sincere he believes himself to be?

I wonder if Linus ever gets frustrated because there is no objective way to measure sincerity? And if he realizes there is no objective standard for such a thing, I wonder if it ever creeps into his mind that his annual mission is nothing more than mindless busywork?

I wonder, does Linus ever has doubts?

For the time being, however, Linus will put aside his doubts and, perhaps as a means of proving his sincerity, begins to proselyte among his friends for converts. Most shrug him off. But Sally, who has a crush on him, believes Linus and agrees to spend Halloween in Linus’ Pumpkin Patch.

Linus then explains that by using positive language and positive thinking, they may be able to attract the Great Pumpkin to their Patch. He also cautions Sally that negative language and negative thinking will cause the Great Pumpkin to pass them by.

There is no room for doubt when one is a Great Pumpkinist. One should never say if the Great Pumpkin comes but always when the Great Pumpkin comes. "One little slip like that, can cause the Great Pumpkin to pass you by!" It’s hard to imagine a benevolent icon such as the Great Pumpkin punishing TBPs (True Believing Pumkinists) for such a minor infraction, but there you have it.


Sally: The Birth of an Ex-Pumpkinist

Because Sally loves her “sweet baboo” Linus, she sets aside her own Halloween plans of trick-or-treating and a Halloween party in order to spend the evening in the Pumpkin Patch. She converts to Great Pumpkinism because she loves Linus. She respects his opinion. And she wants to make him happy and be supportive. And besides, if it’s really true, WOW! Wouldn’t that be fantastic?

But in the end, the only Being that shows up in the Pumpkin Patch is Snoopy. Linus, believing Snoopy to be the Great Pumpkin, swoons into an ecstatic faint, happy in the knowledge that he has finally deciphered the Great Pumpkin’s standard for sincerity. But, alas, it is a misplaced hope, and when Linus regains consciousness, there is not only no Great Pumpkin there to reward him, there is one upset little girl.

"I was robbed! I spent the whole night waiting for the Great Pumpkin when I could have been out for tricks or treats! Halloween is over and I missed it! You blockhead! You kept me up all night waiting for the Great Pumpkin and all that came was a beagle!"

"I didn't get a chance to go out for tricks or treats! And it was all your fault! I'll sue! What a fool I was. And I could have had candy apples and gum! And cookies and money and all sorts of things! But no, I had to listen to you! You blockhead. What a fool I was. Trick or treats come only once a year. And I missed it by sitting in a pumpkin patch with a blockhead. You owe me restitution!"

Luckily for Sally, she only missed one Halloween. And though she is demanding restitution, because her participation was voluntary, she will never receive said restitution. She’ll simply have to accept the experience as one of life’s absurdities and move on.

However, one can hope that this experience has made Sally a more skeptical person, so that the next time she is presented with such fantastic claims, she’ll perhaps be inclined to do her research before committing any time, money or emotion.

After all, fantastic claims should be supported by fantastic evidence, right?

The question now becomes, has this experience made Linus a skeptic? After yet again not having his Pumpkin Patch recognized as sincere and after having endangered his friendship with Sally, will he continue to believe?

In spite of a complete and utter lack of evidence pointing to the existence of the Great Pumpkin, and a complete and utter lack of the Great Pumpkin’s Promise ever having been fulfilled, Linus is a True Believing Pumpkinist to the core. To even admit the possibility that he may be wrong would be to negate all those years of hard work and sincere belief. Linus simply cannot turn his back on his belief.

So if Linus doesn't become an ex-Pumpkinist, what is his strategy? Well, he’s going to keep on trying, isn't he?

"What do you mean, 'stupid'? Just wait until next year. I'll find a pumpkin patch, and I'll sit in that pumpkin patch and it'll be a sincere pumpkin patch, and the Great Pumpkin will come! Just you wait and see! I'll sit in that pumpkin patch, and I'll see the Great Pumpkin. Just wait until next year!"





395 posted on 02/28/2015 7:20:48 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Arthur McGowan
Unbaptized babies, or any unbaptized person who is not guilty of grave sin, would go to Limbo.

Where is Limbo mentioned?

396 posted on 02/28/2015 7:22:20 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Arthur McGowan
No one has ever offered me a reason (as opposed to a vehement, spittle-flecked assertion) why my mother, when she lived in Baltimore, cared about me and prayed for me, but now that she is in Heaven, doesn’t care about me, and doesn’t pray for me.

I thought Catholics are NOT assured of salvation?

397 posted on 02/28/2015 7:23:16 AM PST by Elsie
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To: verga


 


'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,
' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'  


398 posted on 02/28/2015 7:25:00 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Elsie

Every man is allowed one exception: his mother.


399 posted on 02/28/2015 7:28:14 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Elsie
Where is Limbo mentioned?

In the THEORY of Limbo.

If you reject the THEORY of Limbo, you still have to answer the question: Are unbaptized babies (and other innocents, like the severely retarded) damned?

400 posted on 02/28/2015 7:30:08 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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