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Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation
Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer

Lines from the Lord's Prayer, in various languages.
From the Eucharist Door at the Glory Facade of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona, Spain.

It's Lent in Rome. That means it's time for one of the great Roman traditions: station churches. Each morning, English-speaking pilgrims walk to a different church for Mass. This morning, on the way to St. Anastasia's, I was once again struck by a line in the Our Father: “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.” That's a hard thing to pray, It doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Even the Catechism seems shocked by it:

This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, "And forgive us our trespasses," it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord's Prayer, since Christ's sacrifice is "that sins may be forgiven." But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word "as."
Upon arriving at Mass, I discovered that the Gospel for the day was Matthew 6:7-15, in which Christ introduces this prayer. That seemed too serendipitous to simply be a coincidence. Then Archbishop Di Noia, O.P., got up to preach the homily, and it was all about how to understand this particular petition. So here goes: I think that the Lord's Prayer is flatly inconsistent with sola fide, the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Here's why.

In this line of the Lord's Prayer, Jesus seems to be explicitly conditioning our forgiveness on our forgiving. Indeed, it's hard to read “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us” any other way. What's more, after introducing the prayer, Jesus focuses on this line, in particular. Here's how He explains it (Matthew 6:14-15):
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So to be forgiven, you must forgive. If you do, you'll be forgiven. If you don't, you won't be. It's as simple as that.

So Christ has now told us three times that our being forgiven is conditioned upon our forgiving, using the most explicit of language. How does Luther respond to this? “God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace.” And what is Calvin's response? “The forgiveness, which we ask that God would give us, does not depend on the forgiveness which we grant to others.”

Their theology forces them to deny Christ's plain words, since admitting them would concede that we need something more than faith alone: we also need to forgive our neighbors. They've painted themselves into a corner, theologically. To get out of it, they change this part of the Our Father into either a way that we can know that we're saved (Luther's approach: that God “set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer”) or a non-binding moral exhortation (Calvin's: “to remind us of the feelings which we ought to cherish towards brethren, when we desire to be reconciled to God”).

Modern Protestants tend to do the same thing with these verses, and countless other passages in which Christ or the New Testament authors teach us about something besides faith that's necessary for salvation. We see this particularly in regards to the Biblical teaching on the saving role of Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and works (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:6-8; James 2). There are three common tactics employed:

  1. Reverse the causality. If a passage says that you must do X in order to be saved, claim that it really means that if you're saved, you'll just naturally do X. Thus, X is important for showing that you're saved, but it doesn't actually do anything, and certainly isn't necessary for salvation (even if the Bible says otherwise: Mark 16:16).
  2. No True Scotsman. If Scripture says that someone believed and then lost their salvation (like Simon the Magician in Acts 8, or the heretics mentioned in 2 Peter 2), say that they must not have ever actually believed (even if the Bible says the opposite: Acts 8:13, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-22).
  3. Spiritualize the passage into oblivion. If the Bible says that Baptism is necessary for salvation, argue that this is just a “spiritual” Baptism that means nothing more than believing. And if you need to get around the need to be “born of water and the Spirit” (John 3:5) spiritualize this, too, to get rid of the need for water. Reduce everything to a symbol, or a metaphor for faith.

In fairness to both the Reformers and to modern Protestants, they want to avoid any notion that we can earn God's forgiveness or our salvation. This doesn't justify denying or distorting Christ's words, but it's a holy impulse. And in fact, it was the theme of Abp. Di Noia's homily this morning. Grace is a gift, and what's more, grace is what enables us to forgive others. This point is key, because it explains why Christ isn't teaching something like Pelagianism.

God freely pours out His graces upon us, which bring about both (a) our forgiveness, and (b) our ability to forgive others. But we can choose to accept that grace and act upon it, or to reject it. And that decision has eternal consequences. Such an understanding is harmonious with Christ's actual words, while avoiding any idea that we possess the power to earn our salvation.

So both Catholics and Protestants reject Pelagianism, but there's a critical difference. Catholics believe that grace enables us to do good works, whereas Protestants tend to believe that grace causes us to do good works. To see why it matters, consider the parable of the unmerciful servant, Matthew 18:21-35. In this parable, we see three things happen:

  1. A debtor is forgiven an enormous debt of ten thousand talents (Mt. 18:25-27). Solely through the grace of the Master (clearly representing God), this man is forgiven his debts (sins). He is in a state of grace.
  2. This debtor refuses to forgive his neighbor of a small debt of 100 denarii (Mt. 18:28-30). The fact that he's been forgiven should enable the debtor to be forgiving: in being forgiven, he's received the equivalent of 60,000,000 denarii, and he's certainly seen a moral model to follow. But he turns away from the model laid out by the Master, and refuses to forgive his neighbor.
  3. This debtor is unforgiven by his Master (Mt. 18:32-35). The kicker comes at the very end: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Now, consider all of the Protestant work-arounds discussed above. To deny that this debtor was ever really forgiven would be an insult to the Master and in contradiction to the text. To say that, if we're forgiven, we'll just naturally forgive is equally a contradiction: this debtor is forgiven, and doesn't. To treat the need to forgive the other debtor as a non-binding moral exhortation would have been a fatal error. 

This parable gets to the heart of the issue. The Master's forgiveness is freely given, and cannot be earned. But that doesn't mean it's given unconditionally or irrevocably. Quite the contrary: Christ shows us in this parable that it can be repealed, and tells us why: if we refuse to forgive, we will not be forgiven. It turns out, the Lord's Prayer actually means what it says.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: bumpusadsummum; calvin; catholic; faithalone; forgiveness; forgivingtrespasses; luther; ourfather; paternoster; prayer; solafide; thelordsprayer; theourfather
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To: edwinland

Ah!

The things one learns about from folks on FR!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite_Church


321 posted on 02/27/2015 9:21:15 AM PST by Elsie
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To: verga

Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.

Making the thread about another member is making it personal.

Personal attacks are not allowed in the Religion Forum and not tolerated in the news forum also.


322 posted on 02/27/2015 9:55:19 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Elsie
Looks like the REQUIRMENT for baptism to be NECESSARY for salvation is a bit, shall we say, ineffective.

In that case, you have completely misunderstood everything I said.

323 posted on 02/27/2015 10:05:31 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Resettozero

Has anyone in the RCC ever said why your church is not call the Roman Christian Church?


Ewtn has given a good explanation of why The Catholic Church calls herself that name. There is much in the description that I am sure are contrary to your beliefs; it is what it is.

Here is the link: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm


324 posted on 02/27/2015 10:17:32 AM PST by rwa265
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To: Elsie

The theory of Limbo was BASED ON the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

The problem was this:

No one can be damned who is not guilty of personal sin.

No one can be saved without Baptism.

Therefore: What happens to those who die without personal sin, and without Baptism?

Limbo, a state of natural happiness, without the Beatific Vision. I.e., a place or state that is neither Heaven nor Hell.


325 posted on 02/27/2015 10:18:10 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: rwa265
Ewtn has given a good explanation of why The Catholic Church calls herself that name. There is much in the description that I am sure are contrary to your beliefs; it is what it is.

Every Catholic who responded to my post MISSED the point of my question and answered questions I did not ask. All missed the mark.
326 posted on 02/27/2015 10:24:49 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Arthur McGowan
The theory of Limbo was BASED ON the necessity of Baptism for salvation. The problem was this: No one can be damned who is not guilty of personal sin.

No one can be saved without Baptism.

Therefore: What happens to those who die without personal sin, and without Baptism?

Limbo, a state of natural happiness, without the Beatific Vision. I.e., a place or state that is neither Heaven nor Hell.


Realizing that He is tangential to Roman Catholic practices/doctrines, does Lord Jesus Christ have anything to say about this subject? Does anyone recorded in the Holy Bible have anything to say about this subject?

Have any Roman Catholics gone to Limbo and returned from the dead to give a report on how naturally happy a place Limbo is?

How did the RCC formulate these unknowable doctrines/teachings?
327 posted on 02/27/2015 10:32:03 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: edwinland
Maronite parishes of the Catholic Church will put Maronite Catholic Church on their signboards, to specify their specific rite, but to be clear they are fully part of the worldwide Catholic Church.

Kinduv like non-RCC Christian gatherings having a traditional music service and also a contemporary music service? Whichever one a Christian prefers?
328 posted on 02/27/2015 10:37:08 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero

So it is your position that unbaptized babies are damned?


329 posted on 02/27/2015 10:44:32 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan
The theory of Limbo was BASED ON the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

The problem was this:

No one can be damned who is not guilty of personal sin.
No one can be saved without Baptism.
Therefore: What happens to those who die without personal sin, and without Baptism?
Limbo, a state of natural happiness, without the Beatific Vision. I.e., a place or state that is neither Heaven nor Hell.

So you created a 'state' that the bible doesn't reference...You invented a 'state' to fill in the hole that your theology created...

Seem to me that with all the intellectuals in your religion someone at some time would have said, 'wait a minute', maybe we're looking at this thing wrong...Maybe we're mis-interpreting a few things...Maybe we're skipping some scripture that covers this problem...

330 posted on 02/27/2015 10:59:25 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Arthur McGowan
So it is your position that unbaptized babies are damned?

Idiotic insincere response to a legitimate question.

(Even if a FReeper is trying deliberately to be banned from FR...I am not.)
331 posted on 02/27/2015 11:09:38 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Arthur McGowan

Since others say you are an RCC priest, you would know the answer to this question:

Which is superior, the Catholic written doctrines...

...or the Holy Bible?

(When there is a conflict, which of these scriptures takes precedence?)


332 posted on 02/27/2015 11:18:22 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero
"Every Catholic who responded to my post MISSED the point of my question and answered questions I did not ask. All missed the mark.

I guess that would include me? Which kind of conflicts with your kind comment saying my answer was the best and thanking me for my thoughful response.

Also conflics with the fact that you didn't point out anything specific that I missed.

333 posted on 02/27/2015 11:28:38 AM PST by edwinland
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To: edwinland
I guess that would include me? Which kind of conflicts with your kind comment saying my answer was the best and thanking me for my thoughful response.

Also conflics with the fact that you didn't point out anything specific that I missed.


I lost track of our chat(s) and must have been mistaken somewhere(s) along the line. My bad. Please accept my apology. Yet, I cannot promise it might not happen again.
334 posted on 02/27/2015 11:35:56 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: edwinland

Post #332 is on my mind right now. Do you have a response to it?

R2z


335 posted on 02/27/2015 11:44:36 AM PST by Resettozero
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To: Arthur McGowan
No one can be saved without Baptism.

Thief on the cross.....soldiers who die on the battlefield, people in car wrecks, death bed confessions....all profess faith in Christ, have repented.....

you're saying those folks are not saved as they didn't get baptized??

336 posted on 02/27/2015 11:56:59 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: Resettozero
In church documents the people are called "the Christian faithful" or "The People of God" etc., on the vatican website there are 42600 hits for "christian" taking the first hit (Spe Salvi) we find the following references:

ON CHRISTIAN HOPE
According to the Christian faith, “redemption”—salvation—is not simply a given...
the First Letter of Peter exhorts Christians to be always ready to give an answer...
We see how decisively the self-understanding of the early Christians was shaped by their having received the gift of a trustworthy hope...
compare the Christian life with life prior to faith...
a distinguishing mark of Christians...
Christianity was not only “good news”—the communication of a hitherto unknown content....
In our language we would say: the Christian message was not only “informative” but “performative”...
We who have always lived with the Christian concept of God, and have grown accustomed to it, have almost ceased to notice that we possess the hope that ensues from a real encounter with this God...
this is how Christians addressed one another...
Hebrews says that Christians here on earth do not have a permanent homeland...
present society is recognized by Christians as an exile...
many of the early Christians belonged to the lower social strata...
is the Christian faith also for us today a life-changing and life-sustaining hope?
this is what being baptized, becoming Christians, is all about: it is not just an act of socialization within the community, not simply a welcome into the Church...
After his conversion to the Christian faith...
Hope in a Christian sense is always hope for others as well...
fundamental requirements of the Christian life
it was the Christian faith that had the particular merit...
The Christian faith has shown us that truth, justice and love are not simply ideals...
Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures...
As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself?

The word appears 55 times in that document, the word Catholic only 10, 8 of those being in the footnotes with reference to the CCC.

The Church DOES identify herself as Christian, at the same time "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

337 posted on 02/27/2015 11:57:48 AM PST by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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To: Resettozero; Arthur McGowan
>Since others say you are an RCC priest, you would know the answer to this question:<

Which is superior, the Catholic written doctrines... ...or the Holy Bible? (When there is a conflict, which of these scriptures takes precedence?)

Vegas says no answer!

338 posted on 02/27/2015 11:59:06 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: Legatus
The Church DOES identify herself as Christian.

By your word, yes, I believe you. But in actuality, the Catholic church identifies itself as Catholic and, vainly, as the only Church Jesus of Nazareth founded.

She should try harder to believe in and follow ONLY Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone. Just Jesus Christ. Then perhaps the Catholic church (Roman rite) would present Christ first to a lost and dying generation, and "Catholic" a lot less.
339 posted on 02/27/2015 12:04:54 PM PST by Resettozero
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To: ealgeone
Vegas says no answer!

It is NOT a trick question. Shirley that FReeper will answer it later when he isn't so busy with his Lent duties and religious practices.

(He's got a job to do.)
340 posted on 02/27/2015 12:07:52 PM PST by Resettozero
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