Faith Alone v. Forgiving Trespasses: How the Lord's Prayer Contradicts the Reformation

Catholic Defense ^ | February 25, 2015

[Elsie]

Ah!

The things one learns about from folks on FR!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite_Church

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.

Making the thread about another member is making it personal.

Personal attacks are not allowed in the Religion Forum and not tolerated in the news forum also.

[Arthur McGowan]

Looks like the REQUIRMENT for baptism to be NECESSARY for salvation is a bit, shall we say, ineffective.

In that case, you have completely misunderstood everything I said.

[rwa265]

Has anyone in the RCC ever said why your church is not call the Roman Christian Church?

---

Ewtn has given a good explanation of why The Catholic Church calls herself that name. There is much in the description that I am sure are contrary to your beliefs; it is what it is.

Here is the link: http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm

[Arthur McGowan]

The theory of Limbo was BASED ON the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

The problem was this:

No one can be damned who is not guilty of personal sin.

No one can be saved without Baptism.

Therefore: What happens to those who die without personal sin, and without Baptism?

Limbo, a state of natural happiness, without the Beatific Vision. I.e., a place or state that is neither Heaven nor Hell.

[Resettozero]

Ewtn has given a good explanation of why The Catholic Church calls herself that name. There is much in the description that I am sure are contrary to your beliefs; it is what it is.

Every Catholic who responded to my post MISSED the point of my question and answered questions I did not ask. All missed the mark.

[Resettozero]

The theory of Limbo was BASED ON the necessity of Baptism for salvation. The problem was this: No one can be damned who is not guilty of personal sin.

No one can be saved without Baptism.

Therefore: What happens to those who die without personal sin, and without Baptism?

Limbo, a state of natural happiness, without the Beatific Vision. I.e., a place or state that is neither Heaven nor Hell.

Realizing that He is tangential to Roman Catholic practices/doctrines, does Lord Jesus Christ have anything to say about this subject? Does anyone recorded in the Holy Bible have anything to say about this subject?

Have any Roman Catholics gone to Limbo and returned from the dead to give a report on how naturally happy a place Limbo is?

How did the RCC formulate these unknowable doctrines/teachings?

[Resettozero]

Maronite parishes of the Catholic Church will put Maronite Catholic Church on their signboards, to specify their specific rite, but to be clear they are fully part of the worldwide Catholic Church.

Kinduv like non-RCC Christian gatherings having a traditional music service and also a contemporary music service? Whichever one a Christian prefers?

[Arthur McGowan]

So it is your position that unbaptized babies are damned?

[Iscool]

The theory of Limbo was BASED ON the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

The problem was this:

No one can be damned who is not guilty of personal sin.
No one can be saved without Baptism.
Therefore: What happens to those who die without personal sin, and without Baptism?
Limbo, a state of natural happiness, without the Beatific Vision. I.e., a place or state that is neither Heaven nor Hell.

So you created a 'state' that the bible doesn't reference...You invented a 'state' to fill in the hole that your theology created...

Seem to me that with all the intellectuals in your religion someone at some time would have said, 'wait a minute', maybe we're looking at this thing wrong...Maybe we're mis-interpreting a few things...Maybe we're skipping some scripture that covers this problem...

[Resettozero]

So it is your position that unbaptized babies are damned?

Idiotic insincere response to a legitimate question.

(Even if a FReeper is trying deliberately to be banned from FR...I am not.)

[Resettozero]

Since others say you are an RCC priest, you would know the answer to this question:

Which is superior, the Catholic written doctrines...

...or the Holy Bible?

(When there is a conflict, which of these scriptures takes precedence?)

[edwinland]

"Every Catholic who responded to my post MISSED the point of my question and answered questions I did not ask. All missed the mark.

I guess that would include me? Which kind of conflicts with your kind comment saying my answer was the best and thanking me for my thoughful response.

Also conflics with the fact that you didn't point out anything specific that I missed.

[Resettozero]

I guess that would include me? Which kind of conflicts with your kind comment saying my answer was the best and thanking me for my thoughful response.

Also conflics with the fact that you didn't point out anything specific that I missed.

I lost track of our chat(s) and must have been mistaken somewhere(s) along the line. My bad. Please accept my apology. Yet, I cannot promise it might not happen again.

[Resettozero]

Post #332 is on my mind right now. Do you have a response to it?

R2z

[ealgeone]

No one can be saved without Baptism.

Thief on the cross.....soldiers who die on the battlefield, people in car wrecks, death bed confessions....all profess faith in Christ, have repented.....

you're saying those folks are not saved as they didn't get baptized??

[Legatus]

In church documents the people are called "the Christian faithful" or "The People of God" etc., on the vatican website there are 42600 hits for "christian" taking the first hit (Spe Salvi) we find the following references:

ON CHRISTIAN HOPE
According to the Christian faith, “redemption”—salvation—is not simply a given...
the First Letter of Peter exhorts Christians to be always ready to give an answer...
We see how decisively the self-understanding of the early Christians was shaped by their having received the gift of a trustworthy hope...
compare the Christian life with life prior to faith...
a distinguishing mark of Christians...
Christianity was not only “good news”—the communication of a hitherto unknown content....
In our language we would say: the Christian message was not only “informative” but “performative”...
We who have always lived with the Christian concept of God, and have grown accustomed to it, have almost ceased to notice that we possess the hope that ensues from a real encounter with this God...
this is how Christians addressed one another...
Hebrews says that Christians here on earth do not have a permanent homeland...
present society is recognized by Christians as an exile...
many of the early Christians belonged to the lower social strata...
is the Christian faith also for us today a life-changing and life-sustaining hope?
this is what being baptized, becoming Christians, is all about: it is not just an act of socialization within the community, not simply a welcome into the Church...
After his conversion to the Christian faith...
Hope in a Christian sense is always hope for others as well...
fundamental requirements of the Christian life
it was the Christian faith that had the particular merit...
The Christian faith has shown us that truth, justice and love are not simply ideals...
Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures...
As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself?

The word appears 55 times in that document, the word Catholic only 10, 8 of those being in the footnotes with reference to the CCC.

The Church DOES identify herself as Christian, at the same time "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

[ealgeone]

>Since others say you are an RCC priest, you would know the answer to this question:<

Which is superior, the Catholic written doctrines... ...or the Holy Bible? (When there is a conflict, which of these scriptures takes precedence?)

Vegas says no answer!

[Resettozero]

The Church DOES identify herself as Christian.

By your word, yes, I believe you. But in actuality, the Catholic church identifies itself as Catholic and, vainly, as the only Church Jesus of Nazareth founded.

She should try harder to believe in and follow ONLY Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone. Just Jesus Christ. Then perhaps the Catholic church (Roman rite) would present Christ first to a lost and dying generation, and "Catholic" a lot less.

[Resettozero]

Vegas says no answer!

It is NOT a trick question. Shirley that FReeper will answer it later when he isn't so busy with his Lent duties and religious practices.

(He's got a job to do.)