Posted on 02/25/2015 11:50:17 AM PST by NYer
All true in a sense.
But one can have faith, become incorporated into Jesus Christ, yet not abide in Him through failure to be obedient to His commandments:
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. . . . 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. . . . 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. John 15:1,2,5,6, 9-12
For a vivid illustration of failing to abide and being cast into the fire, see the "Goats" of Matt. 25:31ff
But one coming to believe in Jesus will understand that Jesus established His church to be the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15) and consequently desire to be incorporated into that, as Christ's body, and partake of that which Jesus intended be received through it.
So I know what your question is trying to drive at, but I still say it proceeds off a flawed "either/or" premise that I don't accept. I still see no reason to force a division between Jesus and Jesus's church.
Thus, Mary cannot fill this role in spite of what the catholic church teaches.
Since the Catholic Church doesn't teach it, then there is no issue for me. Though I will have a difficult time dissuading you of that, as it seems you're determined to see it that way. You do. We don't. That should clue you in a bit; but I suspect it won't.
No where do we have any Biblical support for the catholic position that Mary is doing this for us.
And I can't offer you the type of explicit Biblical support you demand. We Catholics are not sola scriptura in the sense you are, so we don't need proof in that way.
It is the intent of the fifth marian dogma to replace the Holy Spirit in this role with Mary.
Nonsense. If the teaching is ever elevated to dogmatic level (it is already taught), it is just a development of the idea expressed by St. Irenaeus, bishop, martyr, and disciple of the Apostle John through St. Polycarp of Mary as the "New Eve:"
4. In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to your word.” Luke 1:38 But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise “they were both naked, and were not ashamed,” Genesis 2:25 inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. Against Heresies, III, 22, 4
Mary is seen in Scripture by antithesis to Eve: just as Eve participated in the Fall, Mary participated in the Redemption (co-redemptrix). This idea expressed by Ireneaeus is found throughout the early post-Apostolic world.
So again, I'll ask...do we have complete forgiveness of sin or is there something we must "do" to have the forgiveness of Christ?
I thought my answer clear, but in any case I'll rephrase: there is nothing beyond repentance and confession that we need to for forgiveness of the eternal punishment for sin; though there may be atonement we need make for the temporal punishment for sin.
Just so no one is misled:
Adam and Eve’s first sin was NOT Original Sin. It was THEIR PERSONAL sin.
Original Sin is the “sin” WE are conceived with. It is not personal sin. It is called sin by analogy precisely because it is NOT personal sin, but it leads to the commission of personal sin long after conception and birth.
Keep things in context for this passage. Who are the sheep and who are the goats in Scripture? Sheep are those that follow/believe in Jesus.....goats are those who haven't followed/believed in Jesus. So yes, if you aren't a believer in Christ this passage should be a wake up call.
I'll close on this one.
JOHN 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will not cast out.
I bolded "I will not cast out" for a reason. In the Greek the bolded words are ου μη εκβαλω.
The ου μη is the strongest form of negation possible in Greek when followed by the aorist subjunctive.
It is the most decisive way of negating something in the future. It rules out even the idea as being a possibility.(Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Daniel B. Wallace, p468)
What is being negated is the possibility of Jesus casting out those who are His....in other words the sheep.
Other verses we see the ου μη setup are in John 10:28 and John 11:26 and Rev 2:11 all pertaining to our eternal salvation as well.
For those who have come to Jesus, He will not cast us out. EVER.
Your salvation is secure.
Yes...let's be sure none are mislead.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—Rms 5:12
Original Sin is the “sin” that we are conceived with.
It is a RESULT of the sin of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were created without Original Sin. They committed PERSONAL SIN, with the result that their descendants are born with Original Sin.
None of the Scriptures you quoted was relevant.
The Scripture says that the sheep are those who FED the hungry, CLOTHED the naked, etc.
The Scripture says that the goats are those who DID NOT FEED the hungry, DID NOT CLOTHE the naked, etc.
But those who cling to the un-Scriptural doctrine of sola fide twist the Scripture, claiming it says that the sheep and goats are judged by whether they had faith in Christ.
There isn’t a single part of Jesus’ account of the Final Judgment that promotes or supports sola fide. The entire story is about good works, and teaches clearly that the Final Judgment will be based on good works.
I simply cannot fathom why people fight kicking and screaming, the idea of being secure in their salvation as God promises. Why fight so hard to hold on to a belief that they have to work endlessly for a salvation they are not ever assured of in the first place because of their own weakness?
When I was a Catholic, I’d have given anything to know that I was saved for sure.
Not only was I not sure of my salvation, I was sure I was going to hell because the Catholic church made staying saved so hard. I knew I stood only a slim chance of making it.
I was sure, as all of them are, that someone being sure of being saved was arrogance, they thought they were better than everyone else, and that, as I was taught, it was the sin of presumption.
See my post regarding John 6:37
The Goats refer to Him as "Lord." The understood/believed in who He is. They just weren't obedient. This passage also echos Matt. 7;21
21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Where in these passages (Matt. 25) does it say anything about the Goats not being believers? Someone else offered this same interpretation of this account. I asked where in the passages it says anything about "because you didn't believe?" I never got a reply. In the account, the Goats aren't admonished for their lack of faith, but their lack of charity. This tracks what Jesus said in John 15 about those who fail to abide in Jesus for failure to obey His commandment to love and are cast out. (One can't be "cast out" who was never engrafted to the vine to start.)
What is being negated is the possibility of Jesus casting out those who are His....in other words the sheep.
Wouldn't the complete Scriptural view here be that those who both "come" to Him and "abide" in Him won't be cast out? John also repeats what Jesus says in John 15 about abiding in Jesus through obedience to His commandments:
[3] And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He who says "I know him" but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him[.] 1 John 2:3,4
This obviously is straight from:
He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. . . . 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. 12. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
In John's writings, "believe" and "come to" always convey the sense of an ongoing, obedient relationship. This understanding harmonizes all of the pertinent passages.
You're employing the classic Protestant approach here: when faced with a verse that is in opposition to your position, look around for another verse that sounds better to what you like and talk about that exclusively.
But I'm sure you've gone around these discussions as I have and will hold to your view. Just as I will see it as incomplete and selective.
There are a lot of "good people" in the world today who do these things. People run charities, bring food to sick people, visit people in jail, etc.
However, a lot of those people do not know who Jesus is. They do not believe in Him or have faith in Him and they could care less about Him.
Do those people, because they did these good things, yet do not have faith in Christ, inherit the Kingdom or are they cast into the fire?
The Goats refer to Him as "Lord." The understood/believed in who He is. They just weren't obedient. This passage also echos Matt. 7;21
21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Let's keep in mind the demons call Him Lord also and they believe; yet we know they don't have faith in Jesus as Christians do.
Let's put this in context shall we?
In Matthew 7:15-23
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
The ones who practice lawlessness are not Christians.
The Greek word for lawlessness is ἀνομία and means the utter disregard for God's law. (Helps Word Studies)
These people are not Christians.
The Greek verb for practice is ἐργαζόμενοι. It is in the present middle/passive tense. The present indicates on-going action from the perspective of the writer.
Matthew is noting these people are continually ignoring God's Law. They want nothing to do with God.
Does that sound like a Christian? No.
These are people who've been told "good works" will save you. We've heard it from too many people and denominations. Yet they are hoping somehow that the "good things" they've done are enough to enter Heaven.
Yes they did "good works". But those good works aren't going to save them. Why? Jesus tells us in v23.
Jesus says "I never knew you." They are not Christians.
How does someone "know" Christ?
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Right here.
Matthew 14:46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Now we know what makes man righteous don't we.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
The goats don't have that faith. They think that it's the works. Do you think it's the works?
I don't know how it could be stated more plainly or clearly.
And yet, people who want to depend on their own works to get them to heaven will fight it kicking and screaming.....
And then when they are judged by those works, they'll be thrown into hell kicking and screaming.
It's GOD who justifies the ungodly, not the ungodly themselves. They CAN'T justify themselves. There is simply no way a sinner can attain right standing before a holy God without it being given to him in a judicial pardon.
It's man's pride that wants to take at least some of the credit. Those that preach faith and works preach to tickle those ears.
What IS 'clear' to even the casual reader of this thread; is that the FACT that ROME threw away a LOT of Jewish Scripture; and has the GALL to accuse others of doing the same thing.
Isn't RAHAB, the WHORE, in the lineage of Jesus?
How can that BE???
By making it...
Romans 4:5
...it's in the Catholic book; too!
Romans 4:5 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.
For the benefit of others following this thread, I'll just summarize what we learned about the name of the Catholic Church, in answer to your question "Has anyone in the RCC ever said why your church is not call the Roman Christian Church? Why the undying attachment to the word “Catholic” and detachment from the word “Christian” in how you identify your church to the world?"
1. The actual name by which the Catholic Church identifies herself to the world is simply the Catholic Church. Anglicans who believe in the branch theory of the Church began calling her the Roman Catholic Church relatively recently, but this is not how the Catholic Church identifies herself.
2. There are many rites within the Catholic Church, the largest being the Roman Rite.
3. The name The Catholic Church is intended by the Catholic Church to refer to the "one holy, catholic and apostolic church" of the Creed. Many Christians who profess the Creed do not agree with this identification and for them the small c capital C distinction is important, but in a discussion of how the Church got her name and how she identifies herself to the world that distinction is less relevant.
4. The name The Catholic Church was in use by the 2nd Century A.D.
5. Not having the word "Christian" in its name is not a unique feature of the Catholic Church. It is a feature of the vast majority of all Christian churches, including the vast majority of Protestant churches. This may be because in the New Testament itself the Church is simply called The Church.
I realize that Resettozero has finished with this discussion but if anyone spots anything incorrect in the above, or identifies any specific facts that are relevant to the history of the name of the Catholic Church that I omitted, please respond so I may amend this summary.
An excellent article on this topic can be found here:
https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm
Best wishes to all on this thread.
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