Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[vladimir998]

“So, then you are saying here that there is a difference between worship/prayer and veneration, and that Catholics know what it is.”

There is a difference between latria on the one hand and hyperdulia or dulia on the other. The difference is about what is attached to whom by their nature. God is God. Only He is to be worshiped, given latria. Mary and the saints can be venerated. All that they are is because of God’s gifts to them. I have ZERO difficulty distinguished between God and everybody else. ZERO. I have no difficulty distinguishing between God and His creatures. ZERO. I have never met any Catholic who did have a difficulty in that regard.

“You don’t accept appearance as being what’s different.”

Because appearances are mere appearances. Two things can look the same and be different.

“You do suggest above that there is a difference. What IS different in your mind?””

The difference is between Him, them and me and our respective natures. Him - God. He is what He is because He is. Period. “them” - the saints: they are greater than me as I am now but everything they are is because of God for only He and His gifts can make them saints. Me - I am a sinner. I need Him for without Him I’ll never be one of them (the saints). I want both Him (in His Three Divine Persons) as my Father, Lord/Savior, and Comforter. I also want them (the saints) in my life because they are my brothers and sisters in the faith now perfected by His grace. They aid me through the generous power of God before His throne through their prayers. Me? What am I? Thankful. Very thankful. Why? See Sirach 51:1-12.

Here, I’ll just post it:

I will give thanks to thee, O Lord and King,
and will praise thee as God my Savior.
I give thanks to thy name,
for thou hast been my protector and helper
and hast delivered my body from destruction
and from the snare of a slanderous tongue,
from lips that utter lies.
Before those who stood by
thou wast my helper, 3 and didst deliver me,
in the greatness of thy mercy and of thy name,
from the gnashings of teeth about to devour me,
from the hand of those who sought my life,
from the many afflictions that I endured,
from choking fire on every side
and from the midst of fire which I did not kindle,
from the depths of the belly of Hades,
from an unclean tongue and lying words—
the slander of an unrighteous tongue to the king.
My soul drew near to death,
and my life was very near to Hades beneath.
They surrounded me on every side,
and there was no one to help me;
I looked for the assistance of men,
and there was none.
Then I remembered thy mercy, O Lord,
and thy work from of old,
that thou dost deliver those who wait for thee
and dost save them from the hand of their enemies.
And I sent up my supplication from the earth,
and prayed for deliverance from death.
I appealed to the Lord, the Father of my lord,
not to forsake me in the days of affliction,
at the time when there is no help against the proud.
I will praise thy name continually,
and will sing praise with thanksgiving.
My prayer was heard,
for thou didst save me from destruction
and rescue me from an evil plight.
Therefore I will give thanks to thee and praise thee,
and I will bless the name of the Lord.

[Grateful2God]

Why don’t you ask King James’ editor? John took Mary into his home. Rome was the center of the world at the time, and Peter, being the head of the 12 original apostles, and the Vicar of Christ on earth, took a tough spot. He was crucified there, just as Paul was beheaded there...

[Grateful2God]

Amazing reply! God be with you!

[xzins]

I hear you saying that the difference between worship and veneration is based in the nature of the glorified saints, that they have attained to a higher status (status...for want of a better word).

(I’m putting words in your mouth not out of anything other than attempting to understand.) You are saying that you know the difference between worship (only to God) and veneration (to saints/angels) because worship is only to God no matter if it is the same acts that are performed. (Did I get that right?)

Now, to be fair to those not of that same Church, it does appear to be circular reasoning. It isn’t worship because you know that it isn’t.

When I argue with my wife, she can say, “You’re angry.” I can reply, “It isn’t anger because I know when I’m angry.” She says, “But it looked like anger.” Again I reply, “But it isn’t. I know what I felt, and it wasn’t anger.”

You’ve got to feel for the wife. She’s not a mind reader.

The same with us non-Catholics. We could take you at your word, that it isn’t worship, but it looks the same as when you worship, so at least give us the benefit of understanding, since we’re from a different ‘culture’.

[Grateful2God]

That was a deflection. Once again, “Why would He not speak to others, as well? Not sarcasm, an honest question.”

[vladimir998]

Thank you!

[metmom]

Each person has their own conscience.

their own personal interpretation of the CCC, creeds, writings of the ECF's, Scripture, whatever.

Every man his own pope, IOW.

[metmom]

There is a difference between latria on the one hand and hyperdulia or dulia on the other.

The difference is.....

[WVKayaker]

... 1) Which is more important as an issue: a) Assumption of Mary or b) sola fide and sola scriptura? ...Vlad the wrong one...

Once again proving that trying to change the subject (or deflect the question) never works!

Look! Squirrel! (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain TRUTH!)

[Resettozero]

Why don’t you ask King James’ editor? John took Mary into his home. Rome was the center of the world at the time, and Peter, being the head of the 12 original apostles, and the Vicar of Christ on earth, took a tough spot. He was crucified there, just as Paul was beheaded there...

Now, see? That's an entirely different rendering of RCC history than your compadres on this thread have portrayed. You guys ought to get together and work out just what the facts of the matter are.

So Peter and Mary went to Rome, and he was crucified upside-down the RCC tells me. Didn't that end the RCC right there on the spot?

By the way, who in Rome killed Peter? I thought the RCC bigwigs WERE the ruling Roman authority. Just who was killing whom? Oh wait, that wasn't until Constantine... Oops, forgot.

So, who was running the RCC between Peter's being martyred in Rome and Constantine hundreds of years later?

Often, a regular ol' FReeper such as myself can reason that part of the history of the RCC has been fabricated. Perhaps more that a little.

[vladimir998]

“I hear you saying that the difference between worship and veneration is based in the nature of the glorified saints, that they have attained to a higher status (status...for want of a better word).”

You’re leaving out God and me. I didn’t. Who made the saints? God. If I go to Heaven, who got me there? God. The saints will aid me, but only through Him. They are nothing without Him.

“(I’m putting words in your mouth not out of anything other than attempting to understand.)”

Okay.

“You are saying that you know the difference between worship (only to God) and veneration (to saints/angels) because worship is only to God no matter if it is the same acts that are performed. (Did I get that right?)”

Some acts are strictly reserved for God, yes. I assume you kiss your spouse differently than you do your parents or your children. You love them all, but some acts are restricted to your spouse alone, correct? We only offer the Eucharist to God the Father, for instance, because that was always only intended for Him. We can ask the saints for help, but we never worship them. I know I never have. Ever. Not even once.

All the sacraments are about worshiping and honoring God. Baptism is done through invoking the Trinity. Confirmation is done through the Holy Spirit. Confession is done through the power of Christ. The Eucharist is given by the Son through the invocation of the Holy Spirit and offered to the Father. And so on.

The saints are mere helpmates to God. They do nothing on their own.

“Now, to be fair to those not of that same Church, it does appear to be circular reasoning.”

Nope. I think the problem is your apparently small circle of “appearance” and not our reasoning. The Eastern Orthodox and many Anglicans have no problem understanding what I am saying here so you can’t just say “those not of that same Church”. That just doesn’t wash. That blindness on the part of Protestants makes no sense to me.

“It isn’t worship because you know that it isn’t.”

No. If it isn’t worship it isn’t worship because it isn’t worship. Offering up the Eucharist is worship. That’s only done in adoration of God the Father. Period.

“When I argue with my wife, she can say, “You’re angry.” I can reply, “It isn’t anger because I know when I’m angry.” She says, “But it looked like anger.” Again I reply, “But it isn’t. I know what I felt, and it wasn’t anger.” You’ve got to feel for the wife. She’s not a mind reader.”

But is she right? Notice how you don’t say she is or isn’t? Do you know what you do and don’t do? I do know what I do and don’t do. And I don’t worship anyone but God.

“The same with us non-Catholics.”

Except for the Eastern Orthodox, Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox, and Anglicans you mean. Again, that blindness that Protestants are stricken with.

“We could take you at your word, that it isn’t worship, but it looks the same as when you worship, so at least give us the benefit of understanding, since we’re from a different ‘culture’.”

So if a Protestant gets on his knee to ask his girlfriend to marry him, he must actually be worshiping her because he’s kneeling in front of her, proclaiming his love, his fidelity and so on, right?

[vladimir998]

“The difference is.....”

If you can’t tell the difference between God and men, you have a real problem. I have no such difficulty.

[Resettozero]

So if a Protestant gets on his knee to ask his girlfriend to marry him, he must actually be worshiping her because he’s kneeling in front of her, proclaiming his love, his fidelity and so on, right?

The pope was asking that statue of Mary to marry him? No, I don't believe that.

[Resettozero]

By the way, when did Jesus and Mary pose for all those statues and paintings and other works of art.

Or was it fiction from someone’s (artistic) imagaination?

[vladimir998]

“The pope was asking that statue of Mary to marry him? No, I don’t believe that.”

“To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation. ...Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.” (John Henry Newman, Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)

[xzins]

So if a Protestant gets on his knee to ask his girlfriend to marry him, he must actually be worshiping her because he’s kneeling in front of her, proclaiming his love, his fidelity and so on, right?

That...or get a very cold shoulder for a while. :>)

But you do see the issue of 'appearance' even in your jest. So, we non-Catholics (don't the Orthodox claim to be 'Catholic'?....in any case, we're not all out of protestant churches...some of us came about after the reformation. My own, some 200 years later, and then again 200 years after that.)

[Resettozero]

“To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation. ...Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.” (John Henry Newman, Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)

Did he die with a hammer in his hands? Otherwise, so what?

[xzins]

I should finish that sentence...”So, we non-Catholics...”

So, we non-Catholics are from a different ‘culture’, and should be granted the kindness of proper translation into our language.

[Grateful2God]

It is said that, St. Luke painted a portrait of Our Lady. Other than that, artists who carved images on cathedrals, used them as teaching tools for a population who had little access to, nor ability to read, the written word. Others were to decorate, some with famous figures of the time in pose. Some had dress considered to be worn in the area at the time; others opted for more current style. Hope that helps! God bless you!

[CynicalBear]

>>1) Which is more important as an issue: a) Assumption of Mary or b) sola fide and sola scriptura?<<

Well, let me think about that for a sec. Is making something up that the apostles didn't teach nor is there any historical evidence of more important or do I think to rely strictly what Jesus and the apostles taught is more important?

I'll confess. I think it's more important to rely on what Jesus and the apostles taught than hoping some guy 300 years after Revelation was written who has no written evidence and no historical evidence and then word of mouth through nearly 2000 years.

>>Again, you have failed every single time anyone here has ever asked you to post even one verse that actually teaches sola scriptura or sola fide. Every, single time.<<

Ok, so I believe that when Paul said in Galatians 1 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." that he meant it and if someone teaches something they didn't teach I consider them accursed. Now, Catholics on the other hand believe in fallible humans telling a story through nearly 2000 years without changing. I've seen the game played out.