Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
It is not an organism confined to a cardiovascular-pulmonary-nervous-musculo-skeletal system stuck at 98.6oF. and limited to limbs, sense organs, genitals, hair, ears and all the other outward physical features constituting Jesus' biological limits. What It is, is His REAL, Resurrected Body, without limits and not just a symbol.
After the Consecration, it retains the appearance of bread and wine, but it IS, in truth, Himself: the same Body that was a tiny zygote in the womb of His Virgin Mother; the same Body that died on the cross, was laid in the tomb, and rose on the Third Day; the same Body that is seated at the right hand of the Father in Glory. Unlike before the crucifixion, His body is now transformed and limitless.
When you consume the Eucharist, you are consuming His real flesh and blood: you receive Him in the fullest way imaginable, and beyond what the mind of man can imagine. I repeat: absolutely limitless.
He says "This is My Body."
I say "Amen."
That about sums it up.
Later; after it was all over; dogs were at the foot of the cross; lapping up the blood and water.
No thanks.
Chapter and verse, please?
Your use of "us" is troubling.
3rd day (Monday sundown to Tuesday sundown), the day of double blessing, when most Jewish weddings are held. Not sure where you found the 7th day except the wedding feast usually lasted 7 days. Nothing in the text that I see confirms when the wine played out. However, that might reveal more about this first sign.
So Mary is... Pharaoh? Not sure what you are trying to say. Joseph was definitely an OT type of Jesus, so I can appreciate the similarity. What relationship does Mary have to a pagan ruler ignorantly worshiped as a living god by his people?
I agree that its significant that these are Mary's last recorded words. The Holy Spirit inspired the writers to record only what was important for Believers, therefore she properly fades from the narrative having played her role.
Eucharist? I don't see it.
The 8 SIGNS of John are connected: 1st and 8th, 2nd and 7th etc.
In the first connected group, they had no wine. And they had no fish even after toiling all night in the last. In the first, Jesus "manifested his glory" (2:11). In the eighth, He "manifested himself" (21:14). Only Jesus can supply Israel true joy, supplies, blessing, and glory.
The waterpots for the "purifying the Jews" reveal the significant errors of religion. (Isaiah 1) The wedding was immediately followed in the narrative by Jesus cleansing the corruption of the Temple amplifying this point - the nation had no understanding of true worship. The correction continues in the explanation of the new birth (Nicodemus in John 3) and worshiping in Spirit & Truth (John 4 - woman at well) as opposed to all the rituals and traditions that men establish and/or corrupt.
“Eucharist? I don’t see it.”
LOL! Of course you don’t. Judas didn’t either.
It is so very well written I am almost at a loss for words. Please give me your historical and visible alternative for the holy catholic apostolic church. I'm also open to your top ten favorites in music. You don't need pray to Miriam. If you love Yeshua you will love and bless her too.
I neglected to mention, and you deserve to hear, that his "hour" is mentioned elsewhere in the scriptures. His hour was about his sacrificial death, not about some secondary start to his ministry after he had already been baptized by John and the Holy Spirit descended on Him visibly before him, after he had already called disciples who were to be His apostles. I am persuaded he was telling his mother, in a bond of faith, hope, and charity, the bond of the Holy Spirit, that we was always willing to help up until his hour of glorification arrived. This view works much better than the alternative of imagining Miriam jump started His hour, which would be a very strange teaching to hold in light of the other scriptures, not to mention on its face.
Just imagine what the reaction would be from RCS if we cobbled together passages from the CCC without giving reference to where they were from, under the premise that chapter divisions, etc., were not used from the beginning in literature?
Pliny the Elder credits Quintus Valerius Soranus (d. 82 B.C.) as the first author to provide a table of contents to help readers navigate a lengthy work. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_contents#Earliest_use
Just imagine what the reaction would be from religious leaders when a Jew quoted the scriptures without bowing to their rules and customs.
ROTFL does that mean that Catholics secretly aspire to crucify Protestants for not bowing to Catholic rules and customs?
"Most time, a man will tell you his bad intentions if you listen, let yourself hear.
-- Boss Spearman, Open Range
I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
--Leonard Cohen, Halleluyah
Yes, it was about death-his-sacrificial. It was about Life, too...
I never said it was a "secondary" start, yet it was His first miracle that we know of (from actual apostolic source, that is).
All that good stuff...until the hour of glorification? Almost a strange word choice, that. "Glorification". Begs the question -- when was that?
If the crucifixion ---- would that not result in Him having led her along in -- all those Jesus-rappery buzz-words strung together, "bond of faith, hope...charity" just to then later (at "glorification"?) painfully and miserably let her down?
She did experience a [ahem] big-time feeling of being let-down, disappointed. Like -- everything lovely, cherished, hoped and longed for in the entire universe turned away, was snatched away, God too perhaps she then felt -- had done this, allowed this --- her son dying, God too dying, dead/was never alive but if He is can be cruel, is cruel, a different God, cruel beyond comprehension, not Just, not what she knew was true before --- too much to bear -- grief beyond unbearable and continuing to accelerate...
It was all too much. She too was as dead, on her feet, standing there. A living shell of a woman, rooted to the spot, unable to continue to bear witnessing what was utterly gruesomely horrifying and real in all it's gore & blood that was her firstborn son Son of Promise, son of the most High. From that Son --- now the most High God had turned His own back, turned away from herself, her people and nation too --- the ramifications and meaning of all this (at that moment, if that were to have been as it seemed then, The End) even more deeply ugly than the gaping wounds in the flesh of her son Jesus ---yet herself unable to turn away, her soul having been pierced (as prophesied by Simeon).
It's no wonder then that before He died there on the cross, while himself suffering and quiet near to death, Jesus spoke to her, telling her to behold ---> John his apostle (whom Christ loved), and for John to look to Mary as his mother. John cared for her then. She needed him. John was the right one to be there. Of this we can be sufficiently assured?
Always willing to help, that's her boy Jesus.
For crying out loud, man, can't you see that the wine at the wedding, that super-abundance which He supplied Jehovah Jireh --- was symbolic too of His blood shed for payment and remission of sin? Even as also was symbolic of Life and that in more abundance?
He gave himself bodily, His very life. All of it.
The life is in the blood. Leviticus 17:11; which comes from context regarding the Law, now in retrospect, instead of being merely letter of Law (if I can use that word merely to refer to Law, doing so for reason the spirit of the Law had been long veiled, even thickly so) now reads as having been prophecy; (and it was!it was, it was)
Cherie Amour Stevie Wonder
correction, I intended “quite near”
not quiet near.
Yes, after a fashion. John assures us there were many other things that Jesus did, which if every one were written the world could not contain the books that would be written.
until the hour of glorification? Begs the question -- when was that?
Yes, He declared the hour had come when he would be glorified, signifying His death. He was sanctifying the name, as it were, and more, at his last Pesach/Passover. John records it.
would that not result in Him having led her along in
No. She suffered as a sword or javelin passed through her own soul, as it were. We know that she was at the cross and witnessed him die. Afterward we know she was in unity with all the Apostles and brethren in Jerusalem.
can't you see that the wine at the wedding, that super-abundance which He supplied Jehovah Jireh --- was symbolic too of His blood shed for payment and remission of sin?
No, I don't see Cana as representative of his crucifixion ala Isaiah and Psalms. I don't mind you seeing it that way. Cana was a Jewish wedding. Where and when is the next Jewish wedding going to be ? He did teach about it.
A prophet I love is Micah. The LORD sent not only Moses, but also Aaron and Miriam. Does He require of us blood sacrifices, or to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God ? Notwithstanding, Messiah had to die for sins not His own and rise from the dead.
When you say things like "No. She suffered as a sword or javelin passed through her own soul, as it were." in reply to me -- what is the worth of that, when I just WENT OVER THAT, addressing that?
Can you hear yourself talk, or must you continue to provide reply towards whatever it is I may say, as long as it's being postured as rebuttal but which is no rebuttal at all?
I did not quite put it like that, but was indeed comparing the wine itself with the blood.
Christ himself does no less in other contexts.
That is the key for why when He responded to her (Mary) having said "there is no wine" (the Gospel writer John having just prior to this mentioned that "the wine had failed" roughly meaning -- the supply was exhausted) Jesus saying "Woman, what [is that] to you and me?" saying then also "My hour has not come".
Why, oh why would He have said "My hour has not yet come", which 'hour' you have insisted is the hour of his death, --- then straightaway turned water (which has and carries it's own symbolism) into wine, and that not be included (but not solely inclusive of) representing his own life giving power, even as also the blood payment which He in "his hour" gave, as sign towards the "fall and rising of many in Israel"? (Luke 2:34)
He told the people in John 6 that He was the bread which came from Heaven, even right after having spoken of the manna which had sustained the Israelites in the Wilderness (of Sinai, or Sin) and now Himself somewhat by explanation & demonstration (in John 6) showed Himself also having been all along, the Passover, and now the blood of the new covenant Jeremiah 31:31;
What did he pour out during His "hour"?
The Life is in the blood.
At Jewish weddings (which could go on for the better part of a week) plentiful abundance of wine held significance as representative of God's blessings, and even "life" itself. The wedding toast pronounced over the wine, L'Chaim == To Life.
Roughly a millennium later the Persian poet Omar Khayyam utilizes and toys with the thematic symbolism of wine & life representing one another, although I am not suggesting that writer borrowed alone from Judaic & Christian influences, even there the mark is shown, as it is also evident there was a variety of religious thought & philosophy expressed in form of distillation from his own mind, but I digress...and the Rubaiyat is not exactly scripture...
Red, Red, Wine UB40
They needed wine. Sometimes people needed food. He went about doing good. His mother had faith to ask him to help others. It all depends on the context of "ma li v'lach ?" If one believes Yeshua and Miriam had a relationship of love and faith grounded in the Holy Spirit you have my answer already. If one believes they were adversaries this day, one comes to a completely different conclusion, thinks she interfered with his Messianic ministry, he rebuked her for it, but did a miracle anyway; cognitive dissonance.
If you mean the seven blessings (שבע ברכות), the wedding has already occurred. As regards L'Chaim as a toast, it was a later custom.
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