They'd be a bit tricky to lug around!!
Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
Claiming they are only ‘forms’ of worship and not saying you truly believe they miraculously turn into the REAL body and blood of Christ.
Ah. Glad you explained that, because that's not what I said; neither is it what I believe.
What I said was, "We worship Jesus Christ, really and substantially present --- Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity--- under the forms of bread and wine."
The first phrase, italicized, means I truly believe the bread and wine miraculously turn into the REAL body and blood of Christ.
The second phrase, bolded, means that the forms (appearances) remain the same. Which they pretty obviously do.
I did not say anything about "forms of worship," whatever that means.
“When Mary changed her tune...”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
That’s no change of tune.
As you said so well, we cannot know what was going on in Mary's mind when she approached Jesus concerning the need for wine at the wedding feast. We don't know if she had witnessed "miracles" done by her son up to that point - notwithstanding those mythical writings called "infancy gospels" purported to tell of the young Jesus playing around with his "talent". Nevertheless, we know from the gospel of Mark that even after that miracle at the wedding feast, Jesus' family still doubted His purpose and abilities. In Mark chapter 3, we read of Jesus after he had healed a man with a shriveled hand in the synagogue - much to the consternation of the religious leaders angry that He did so on the Sabbath and it was from this moment that the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.
Jesus left there and went to Lake Galilee where He was followed by a large crowd of people who came from many towns all around to hear Him preach. He healed many there as well. It was then that Jesus appointed the Twelve among His disciples and followers. He then went to a house to have a meal with His disciples and a large crowd gathered there pressing in so that they couldn't even eat their meal. Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. Mark proceeds to say that "when his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”" (Mark 3:20) And the religious leaders started accusing Jesus of being possessed by the devil seeing as He was able to cast them out of possessed people. I find it surprising that even Jesus' own family (we have to assume it included His mother as well as brothers and sisters) doubted His ministry and power. I seldom see anyone bring this up, but think it shows those closest to him - his OWN family - doubted Him. The Gospel of John says, "For even his own brothers did not believe in him." (John 7:5). As hard as it is to believe that the very people Jesus grew up with doubted who He was, we recognize that all-too-familiar human fault. People who SAW Him perform miracles right before their eyes STILL doubted Him.
I believe they DO go to heaven. People will rationalize and justify just about anything they need to to do what they want. What I can't understand is doctors, who take an oath to "do no harm" and who are supposed to be healers, who can work with an infertile couple to conceive a baby on the one hand and then abort a baby for the couple who decides it is "inconvenient" on the other hand. That requires a spiritual blindness that I doubt can be recovered.
Who told you cannot post the Scripture passage you refer to? Is this the one you meant:
Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” (Luke 11:11-13)
That was EASY! All the RM told you to do was make sure you included the Scripture reference when you posted a passage of Scripture. If everyone else can do it why do you say you aren't allowed?
Maybe Jesus' disciples were unexpected (adding twelve guests MIGHT complicate the catering budget) and they didn't BYOB? ;o)
I would give some leeway for Mary herself having not thought he was "out of his mind", but since his brothers did (as it is written) then it is easy enough to imagine they may have turned on Mary to a degree also -- if only to express to her face -- that Jesus is fake/crazy/out of his gourd loony, etc.
That consideration is part of why at the foot of the cross -- where I do think what Simeon had prophesied to her more than thirty years prior -- that a sword would pierce her own soul also --- came to pass, occurred right then and there.
For by then, Jesus's miraculous ministry, His way of speaking and being -- Mary herself likely had come to believe even as she may have yet still struggled to understand, and what all these things would mean for her nation & people, and herself also.
But then -- when that which many were expecting did not come to pass -- and the opposite instead, all the hope, the beauty, strength and wisdom of spirit -- which was her very own flesh & blood son also! --- was murdered almost right before her eyes, herself standing there as He took his last breath? all of that all at once is far too much for any human to endure, so what ever it was which pierced her soul, whether that have been some type of attack on her own spirit by forces of darkness -- or if that piercing was some act of mercy from God to stop the interior cycling within her heart and mind of the stark horror (her own son, with the flesh torn open to expose his ribs, beaten and bloodied beyond comprehension!) causing her mind and will to possible have shut down in part, leaving her at that point -- possibly so utterly wounded within her own soul ---- she may not have been able to find her way home...with no desire to go to that place, anyway, wherever that was, possibly in Nazareth, days(?) distant travel, away?
Her other children, acquaintances, and relatives from Nazareth possibly had disowned her as it were, leaving her now alone, facing what no other human being had -- her own son, who was as she knew the Son of the most high also, the very hope of her nation, the one Messiah, all of that brutally swept away, seeming to have made God himself into being a cruel tormentor also --- in how her own hopes had been built up to then be so horrifically and utterly destroyed...
Yet the disciple whom Jesus loved, John, was there beside her. Who else better in the whole world at that moment could there have been for her, to be there?
And then, be there closely with her in the days following, until the time of the resurrection, and also those 40 days when Christ appeared to 500 people, John would be there as a son to her, to look out for and care for her, to reassure her -- yes! He is risen! it is true! (don't listen to the naysayers). Ah, and she dwelt with that disciple for the end of her days, some measure of safety, with huge measures of real and actual understanding -- not just projections of empathy, but John having faced the horror of it all also -- though not wounded as deeply as Mary, oh no.
I don't think anyone can know just what it was like for her completely, save for the One who knows the inwards parts of all of us...
Now I do confess that I am speculating in much of this, yet I do believe I'm at least in the neighborhood of accurate guesses towards these things.
From that --- I do not believe that I should look upon her as my own mother per se, though one could also imagine that she came to understand much, and had a perspective towards these events unmatchable by any.
So you are now music aficionado? or yet still something more a critic?
Mary brought the problem to Jesus first. God is not moved by need, but by faith - He knows the need (and already has a solution) before you even ask. (Matthew 6:8, 6:32, Luke 12:30) Why didn’t Jesus immediately get up and make wine after verse 3? Why the odd answer in verse 4, that seems to indicate that any action was not yet warranted?
John 2:3-5 (KJV)
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Look at Jesus’ response when Mary confidently tells the servants to follow his words. What words? He hasn’t said anything, and based on the response in verse 4, it seems that he might not do or say anything relevant to the situation. But when Mary releases her faith, trusting that he was the solution, Jesus immediately goes to work and supplies more than enough of the very best wine. (Matthew 17:20, Mark 11:22-24, Luke 17:5-6, James 1:5-8, Hebrews 11:1 & 6)
See similar situations where unbelief at first hinders the miracle in Mark 9 - father and the possessed child, and the Syrophoenician mother - Mark 7. The interaction between the disciples and Jesus at the two crowd feedings might be worth considering as well.
“But when Mary releases her faith, trusting that he was the solution...”
Her faith is exactly the same before and after. There was no change in tune.
3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
Is the exact same “tune” as:
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Why did she need to tell Jesus that there was no wine? Don’t you think he was well aware of the circumstances?
So what was the point of that statement?
“Why did she need to tell Jesus that there was no wine?”
Why did any human being ever tell Jesus anything?
“Don’t you think he was well aware of the circumstances?”
Do you think that stopped people talking to Him? Do you still talk to Him even though He already knows everything you could possibly say to Him? I bet you do. So why would you think His own mother wouldn’t?
“So what was the point of that statement?”
The point is she said what she wanted to say to ask for her Son’s help with the situation. It was the Third Day. You know what that means, right? It was also the Seventh Day. Do you know what that means? And, of course, you noticed that Mary’s comment in verse 5 (”Do whatever he tells you”), which were her last words recorded in the New Testament, are an echo of those said about Joseph in Genesis 41:55. Joseph provided bread for Egyptians and Hebrews alike. Jesus provided wine. It’s a prefigurement of the Eucharist.
True; but all I replied with originally, in 2554, was Forms??; because I didn't know what it meant either.
Glad you explained in more detail.
Now I know a little more of WHAT you believe.
I still don't get WHY you believe it; other than the long time hearing of This is my body" as being LITERAL; not symbolic.
They'd be a bit tricky to lug around!!
Beautiful song!
Yes, it is, though it is not an original composition of the vocal group performing [at the youtube link previously provided].
But then you likely had heard the song before? The Pentatonix cover of it is presently enjoying a fair amount of radio airplay.
As to the song's lyrics and musical arrangement;
In 1984, Lowry wrote the lyrics to the song "Mary, Did You Know?", when asked to write a script for a church Christmas play. Lowry wrote a series of questions that he would like to ask Mary, the mother of Jesus. These questions were used in between the scenes of the play. Over the next decade, Lowry tried to find the music that would complete the song. Twelve years after writing the lyrics, musician and songwriter Buddy Greene wrote the music to the song. The Christmas play script then became the song.The song has become a popular Christmas song performed by more than thirty artists including Cee Lo Green, Clay Aiken, Kenny Rogers, Wynonna Judd, Michael English, Daniel Childs, Natalie Cole, Pippa Wilson, Kathy Mattea, Michael Crawford, and Pentatonix.
It seems to me your prophesying links the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit passage to the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot) passage, and implied that Mary, the mother of God with us, as well as other brethren (cousins of Jesus) believed he was possessed by an unclean spirit. Your use of "we" is troubling as well.
Go to a Catholic assembly tomorrow. Observe all the customs they require of you.
As was I. She knew the prophesies of Messiah. Gabriel did not say to her not to doubt. He told her not to fear. The Holy Spirit enveloped Miriam. She was full of grace, the chosen vessel to bring God with us into the world. God blessed her and kept her all the days of her life. She was incredibly brave.
At Cana she saw a need. She went to her son for help, fully realizing who He is, God with us. There is a bond between them stronger than death. They are linked by the full power of the Holy Spirit. I would quote you a passage from Isaiah if I could. Perhaps you can imagine it.
Their relationship is the context in the Hebrew idiom he used, which is behind the Greek you have from us without royalties. She knew he would help. I am persuaded she knew He could, and would, do miracles. As the foolish find out, it is difficult to buy oil or wine at a late hour of the wedding, but with God nothing shall be impossible.
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