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Protecting God’s Word From “Bible Christians”
Crisis Magazine ^ | October 3, 2014 | RICHARD BECKER

Posted on 10/03/2014 2:33:43 PM PDT by NYer

Holy Bible graphic

“Stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught,
either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.”
~ St. Paul to the Thessalonians

A former student of mine is thinking of becoming a Catholic, and she had a question for me. “I don’t understand the deuterocanonical books,” she ventured. “If the Catholic faith is supposed to be a fulfillment of the Jewish faith, why do Catholics accept those books and the Jews don’t?” She’d done her homework, and was troubled that the seven books and other writings of the deuterocanon had been preserved only in Greek instead of Hebrew like the rest of the Jewish scriptures—which is part of the reason why they were classified, even by Catholics, as a “second” (deutero) canon.

My student went on. “I’m just struggling because there are a lot of references to those books in Church doctrine, but they aren’t considered inspired Scripture. Why did Luther feel those books needed to be taken out?” she asked. “And why are Protestants so against them?”

The short answer sounds petty and mean, but it’s true nonetheless: Luther jettisoned those “extra” Old Testament books—Tobit, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and the like—because they were inconvenient. The Apocrypha (or, “false writings”), as they came to be known, supported pesky Catholic doctrines that Luther and other reformers wanted to suppress—praying for the dead, for instance, and the intercession of the saints. Here’s John Calvin on the subject:

Add to this, that they provide themselves with new supports when they give full authority to the Apocryphal books. Out of the second of the Maccabees they will prove Purgatory and the worship of saints; out of Tobit satisfactions, exorcisms, and what not. From Ecclesiasticus they will borrow not a little. For from whence could they better draw their dregs?

However, the deuterocanonical literature was (and is) prominent in the liturgy and very familiar to that first generation of Protestant converts, so Luther and company couldn’t very well ignore it altogether. Consequently, those seven “apocryphal” books, along with the Greek portions of Esther and Daniel, were relegated to an appendix in early Protestant translations of the Bible.

Eventually, in the nineteenth century sometime, many Protestant Bible publishers starting dropping the appendix altogether, and the modern translations used by most evangelicals today don’t even reference the Apocrypha at all. Thus, the myth is perpetuated that nefarious popes and bishops have gotten away with brazenly foisting a bunch of bogus scripture on the ignorant Catholic masses.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

To begin with, it was Luther and Calvin and the other reformers who did all the foisting. The Old Testament that Christians had been using for 1,500 years had always included the so-called Apocrypha, and there was never a question as to its canonicity. Thus, by selectively editing and streamlining their own versions of the Bible according to their sectarian biases (including, in Luther’s case, both Testaments, Old and New), the reformers engaged in a theological con game. To make matters worse, they covered their tracks by pointing fingers at the Catholic Church for “adding” phony texts to the closed canon of Hebrew Sacred Writ.

In this sense, the reformers were anticipating what I call the Twain-Jefferson approach to canonical revisionism. It involves two simple steps.

The reformers justified their Twain-Jefferson humbug by pointing to the canon of scriptures in use by European Jews during that time, and it did not include those extra Catholic books—case closed! Still unconvinced? Today’s defenders of the reformers’ biblical reshaping will then proceed to throw around historical precedent and references to the first-century Council of Jamnia, but it’s all really smoke and mirrors.

The fact is that the first-century Jewish canon was pretty mutable and there was no universal definitive list of sacred texts. On the other hand, it is indisputable that the version being used by Jesus and the Apostles during that time was the Septuagint—the Greek version of the Hebrew scriptures that included Luther’s rejected apocryphal books. SCORE: Deuterocanon – 1; Twain-Jefferson Revisionism – 0.

But this is all beside the point. It’s like an argument about creationism vs. evolution that gets funneled in the direction of whether dinosaurs could’ve been on board Noah’s Ark. Once you’re arguing about that, you’re no longer arguing about the bigger issue of the historicity of those early chapters in Genesis. The parallel red herring here is arguing over the content of the Christian Old Testament canon instead of considering the nature of authority itself and how it’s supposed to work in the Church, especially with regards to the Bible.

I mean, even if we can settle what the canon should include, we don’t have the autographs (original documents) from any biblical books anyway. While we affirm the Church’s teaching that all Scripture is inspired and teaches “solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings” (DV 11), there are no absolutes when it comes to the precise content of the Bible.

Can there be any doubt that this is by God’s design? Without the autographs, we are much less tempted to worship a static book instead of the One it reveals to us. Even so, it’s true that we are still encouraged to venerate the Scriptures, but we worship the incarnate Word—and we ought not confuse the two. John the Baptist said as much when he painstakingly distinguished between himself, the announcer, and the actual Christ he was announcing. The Catechism, quoting St. Bernard, offers a further helpful distinction:

The Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living.”

Anyway, with regards to authority and the canon of Scripture, Mark Shea couldn’t have put it more succinctly than his recent response to a request for a summary of why the deuterocanon should be included in the Bible:

Because the Church in union with Peter, the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Timothy 3:15) granted authority by Christ to loose and bind (Matthew 16:19), says they should be.

Right. The Church says so, and that’s good enough.

For it’s the Church who gives us the Scriptures. It’s the Church who preserves the Scriptures and tells us to turn to them. It’s the Church who bathes us in the Scriptures with the liturgy, day in and day out, constantly watering our souls with God’s Word. Isn’t it a bit bizarre to be challenging the Church with regards to which Scriptures she’s feeding us with? “No, mother,” the infant cries, “not breast milk! I want Ovaltine! Better yet, how about some Sprite!”

Think of it this way. My daughter Margaret and I share an intense devotion to Betty Smith’s remarkable novel, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. It’s a bittersweet family tale of impoverishment, tragedy, and perseverance, and we often remark how curious it is that Smith’s epic story receives so little attention.

I was rooting around the sale shelf at the public library one day, and I happened upon a paperback with the name “Betty Smith” on the spine. I took a closer look: Joy in the Morning, a 1963 novel of romance and the struggles of newlyweds, and it was indeed by the same Smith of Tree fame. I snatched it up for Meg.

The other day, Meg thanked me for the book, and asked me to be on the lookout for others by Smith. “It wasn’t nearly as good as Tree,” she said, “and I don’t expect any of her others to be as good. But I want to read everything she wrote because Tree was so wonderful.”

See, she wants to get to know Betty Smith because of what she encountered in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. And all we have are her books and other writings; Betty Smith herself is gone.

But Jesus isn’t like that. We have the book, yes, but we have more. We still have the Word himself.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: apocrypha; bible; calvin; christians; herewegoagain; luther
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To: annalex
Since do not address the issue in form of answering the questions as framed ----don't waste any more of my time with repetitious boilerplate which is just more of the same thing which gave rise to the questions posed to you in the first place.
901 posted on 10/07/2014 8:19:58 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...they murdered some of them bums...for thinking wrong thoughts)
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To: annalex
The fact remains that St. Paul did not find it necessary to qualify his inspired remark about “all scripture” in any way, yet surely he was familiar of the existence of the Septuagint.

Yet you cannot even identify which books would have been in the Septuagint version in Paul's day. All you do is guess, presume, conjecture and wish - though why anyone would wish for writings from uninspired writers to be comingled with the books Jews AND Christians both consider Divinely-inspired is the REAL question. Can you admit that the MAIN reason is because the Council of Trent said so and you have to stand by them?

902 posted on 10/07/2014 8:29:41 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
The Bible doesn't give preeminence to one language (or translation) over another.

Not quite, although your point of using the lingua franca translations for the Bible and names seems proper for now. However, there is one pure language and it may very well be Hebrew, which is the language in which God wrote the commandments.


903 posted on 10/07/2014 8:33:25 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: boatbums

No it is not conjecture at all but a matter of well known history.

The Maccabee revolt said it all, Judah would rather die than speak anything but Hebrew. They went through the captivity speaking Hebrew, and even changed their captors wisemen’s language to Hebrew through the wisdom of Daniel and their priests, and then beat the Greeks at their own game.

After all that what else would stop them from keeping the language of the creator?

Why believe the foolish fables of unbelievers?

No book of the NT was written originally in any language but Hebrew. The abundant clumsy cultural errors in all of the Greek language epistles shows beyond a shadow of doubt that whoever did the Greek writings had no understanding of the apostles nor their Hebrew culture.

The desire to defeat God’s word makes people wish to believe almost any foolish fable. The clumsy errors of the Greek translations on every Hebrew feast or other cultural matter are there for all to see, to be understood by believers, and deliberately ignored by unbelievers.
.


904 posted on 10/07/2014 8:47:13 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: annalex; BlueDragon; Springfield Reformer; daniel1212
You are confusing divine inspiration with canonicity. St. Paul named a certain body of literature inspired, and he said "all", so "all", literally, that was accessible to Jewish youth like Timothy is inspired. The question of canon is, of course the business of the Church and she, lead by the Holy Ghost, defined the Canon to be what it is. There is much outside of the Canon of Scripture that is inspired; someone here mentioned 1 Esdra, for example, and I can point to the works of the medieval saints as well. The Holy Ghost leads the Church today and forever, and so the volume of inspired Catholic works continues even today.

I'm not the one who is confused here. You were the one who claimed Paul's words to Timothy about "all" Scripture being "inspired by God" meant all the books in the Greek Septuagint, not me. For Roman Catholics, there is a difference, it appears, between Divine inspiration and canonicity, but for the Jews and not-Roman Catholic Christians, is it abundantly clear that the canon, the Rule of Faith, is based upon the writings that were Divinely inspired, Holy Spirit led revelation from the mind of God to mankind that was NOT of the individual's own interpretation or their own thoughts.

Can God "inspire" believers to write great works, hymns, works of art? Sure, but that is a different kind of inspiration. When people start imagining God is telling them special revelation never before known, all kinds of trouble can follow. God was quite strict in whom He allowed to BE His prophets and He gave His people a sure way of knowing who was or was not speaking by Him. Read Deuteronomy 13 to see how He commanded those who would speak presumptuously for Him to be treated. God takes "inspiration" seriously. So should we. We have the "more sure word of prophecy" so that we can know truth from error. It is not ongoing - especially not for an organization that claims whatever they say is truth.

905 posted on 10/07/2014 8:47:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Elsie

What “many teams?”


906 posted on 10/07/2014 8:49:33 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: BlueDragon; dsc
All of which made me it seem to me the raising of "the religion moderator is unfair to Catholics" meme was partially in attempt to manipulate the babysitter, uh, I mean forum moderator.

Is there any difference in this statement between "mind reading" (attempting to read dsc's mind and attribute motive, or expressing an honest opinion ? It seems to me they overlap. If so, and if there is a perception on the part of Catholics that they are collectively treated unfairly because they are Catholic, it doesn't make it not true because it is your honest opinion otherwise.

The real challenge is to have an authority that has both the scent of integrity and a catholic respect and trust. After that, it is just a petra toss to the Supreme Court where there are real problems.

907 posted on 10/07/2014 8:51:07 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: boatbums
>> “The Bible doesn't give preeminence to one language (or translation) over another” <<

.
No more false statement has ever been made!

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.


At the time that Paul made this clear statement, obviously no writings of the word had been made in any other language. .

908 posted on 10/07/2014 8:57:33 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: rwilson99
baby bump, it's not "all that"

Tinseltown talk. Watch a lot of celeb TV do ya?

909 posted on 10/07/2014 9:07:53 PM PDT by Syncro (The Body of Christ [His church]: Made up of every born again Christian. Source--Jesus in the Bible)
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To: boatbums
Can God "inspire" believers to write great works, hymns, works of art? Sure, but that is a different kind of inspiration.

Rome does not believe that the words of popes or oral tradition are inspired by God and authored by Him like as Scripture is, but some RCs are more Catholic than Rome.

910 posted on 10/07/2014 9:19:06 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: CynicalBear
I must say I was gobsmacked a while back when someone posted Genesis 3:15 with the he changed to she!

“And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your descendants and her Descendant. He She will crush your head...
Must have been from an "official" version.

Mary seems to be the central figure in the Catholic religion.

911 posted on 10/07/2014 9:24:06 PM PDT by Syncro (The Body of Christ [His church]: Made up of every born again Christian. Source--Jesus in the Bible)
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To: af_vet_1981; BlueDragon; dsc
The phrase "seem to me" makes the statement an expression of the poster's own mind rather than a reading of the correspondent's mind.
912 posted on 10/07/2014 9:32:54 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: boatbums; All
The Bible doesn't give preeminence to one language (or translation) over another

Ah so true, the bunny trail of language and translations rears it's ugly head.

It doesn't really matter much except for obvious slanted versions of the Bible.

Study tools including all major translations, parallel Bible is nice, Strong's concordance for clarification of Hebrew and Greek text coupled with the one main ingredient:

Praying for the Holy Spirit to "speak" the Truth to the heart when reading scripture.

All this talk and accusations of Christians self "interpreting" the Bible is just a way of distracting from the message and pointing to the knowledge of men...and one woman...instead of Jesus, The Word.

913 posted on 10/07/2014 9:35:13 PM PDT by Syncro (The Body of Christ [His church]: Made up of every born again Christian. Source--Jesus in the Bible)
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To: boatbums

And how some RCs get 46 out of 22 is beyond me.

From the account of Eusebius [on Origen] in his Ecclesiastical History, vi. 25.

When expounding the first Psalm he gives a catalog of the Sacred Scriptures of the Old Testament as follows: “It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two, corresponding with the number of their letters.” Farther on he says: “The twenty-two books of the Hebrews are the following: That which is called by us Genesis, but by the Hebrews, from the beginning of the book, Breshith, which means ‘in the beginning’; Exodus, Welesmoth, that is, ‘these are the names’; Leviticus, Wikra, ‘and he called’; Numbers, Ammesphekodeim; Deuteronomy, Eleaddebareim ‘these are the words’; Joshua the son of Nun, Josoue ben Noun; Judges and Ruth, among them in one book, Saphateim; the first and second of Kings, among them one, Samoel, that is, ‘the called of God’; the third and fourth of Kings in one, Wammelch David, that is, ‘the kingdom of David’; of the Chronicles, the first and second in one, Dabreiamein, that is, ‘records of days’; Esdras, first and second 1 in one, Ezra, that is, ‘an assistant’; the book of Psalms, Spharthelleim; the Proverbs of Solomon, Meloth; Ecclesiastes, Koelth; the Song of Songs (not, as some suppose, Songs of Songs), Sir Hassirim; Isaiah, Jessia; Jeremiah, with Lamentations and the Epistle 2 in one, Jeremia; Daniel, Daniel; Ezekiel, Jezekiel; Job, Job; Esther, Esther; And outside of these there are the Maccabees, which are entitled Sarbeth Sabanaiel.” 3 He gives these in the above-mentioned work. From the account of Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History, vi. 25.


914 posted on 10/07/2014 9:51:12 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: af_vet_1981
I'm not responsible for the unbalanced opinions of others.

If you are alluding there is some "scent" problem or lack of integrity on the part of management here, if that is what you meant...that's just so much continuance of this particular evil meme that has been circulating around this forum as some kind of virus.

I realize you may have been trying to help, and my reply here is a little hard-edged, and you yourself deserve a modicum of decency, in the least.

But I watched the Mormons pull similar whiny stunts trying to take over and force the admin here into disallowing criticisms of their their own history, doctrines, and beliefs. The trouble there was..they were not near subtle and slick enough about it --AND they lacked the raw numbers. They lost, and lost badly...

If people here don't respect the forum moderator all I can say is stop complaining and LEAVE. Just GET OUT.

People here are asking too much of that person. And it's chiefly because they cannot see THEMSELVES.

Present company (yourself) excepted from that last judgement, as far as I can tell...

915 posted on 10/07/2014 9:56:03 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...they murdered some of them bums...for thinking wrong thoughts)
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To: sasportas; editor-surveyor

Yes, I saw that. I had heard and believed the version where “Nicolaitan” related to “lording it over people.” I now recognize the possibility that this is what is called a genetic fallacy, defined in Wikipedia as “a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s origin rather than its current meaning or context.”

Very often this fallacy will surface in language debates, such that someone will pull out the etymology of some contested term and argue from the raw etymology directly to the meaning without asking whether the contemporaneous usage of the term (lexicography) squares with the etymology. That’s an error, because words can shift in meaning quite dramatically from their primitive etymological origins.

For example, if an atheist says “goodbye,” do they mean “I am leaving now,” or do they mean “God be with ye?” Because if we went with strict etymology in a vacuum, you’d have to say he meant “God be with ye,” which of course is an absurd conclusion. So while the etymology isn’t totally irrelevant, it is only one of a number of factors we use to get at the meaning.

For example, there is some evidence that this group may have been a faction led by a real person really named Nicolas. In this case the etymology behind the name could be completely irrelevant.

But even if we say the etymology is relevant, with Nicolaitan, there are multiple possible etymologies. The most common understanding is essentially what ES has stated, that it is a composite that means something like conqueror of people. But that is also just what the given name Nicholas means, and identifying a real individual with that name would not necessarily import the meaning of their name to this narrative.

But there is another very similar Greek word, nicolah, which means “Let us eat,” which has a strong resonance with the context, which describes the Nicolaitans as promoting the eating of things offered to idols, as well as fornication. So the “eating [things offered to idols] cult,” which gives also a very strong reason for it coming under such harsh condemnation by Jesus.

Going back to the “conqueror of people” line of reasoning, I can see that relating to the same context, but not in terms of the typical “clergy versus laity” objection, which presents the Nicolaitans as introducing a heretical priest/laity class stratification into the churches. Another, and I think better connection could be that factions in the ecclesia typically develop from someone’s need to exert power or control over others. This is one of the key defining attributes of cults.

Don’t misunderstand. I am a Protestant, and I believe the sacerdotal system of priesthood is anachronistic, and has no place in the New Covenant. I would , however, not see this passage as addressing that problem. There are plenty of other passages that hit the issue square on, and make for much better authority in the conclusions.

Peace,

SR


916 posted on 10/07/2014 10:24:09 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: annalex

Thanks for your response. I think you will find Beckwith does deal with what the extent of the First Century OT canon was, and that it did not embrace the deuterocanonicals.

As for the creditability of any given scholar, being an attorney who likes to win, I am fine with impeaching a witness. But the impeachment must have better form than “Well, he’s a Protestant.” That would never sell in court. “Well, he’s Republican, Democrat, Black, White, Hispanic, Catholic, Mormon, etc etc etc.” Impeach him if you can, but on substance, not via “genetic fallacy.”

Peace,

SR


917 posted on 10/07/2014 10:34:50 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
Thanks for your thoughts on it.

There are plenty of other passages that hit the issue square on, and make for much better authority in the conclusions.

Makes sense.

918 posted on 10/07/2014 10:48:45 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: vladimir998

I see no common mistake unless I failed to quote Jesus in Luke 24 in a more suitable language for you.


919 posted on 10/07/2014 11:02:16 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: Rides_A_Red_Horse

What? I say a simple formula to get saved? Presto! Halleluyah!

Then I guess I can go around proudy ridiculing everyone since I am saved, not like the rest of you sinners.

of course one sardonic carpenter said not all those who say lord lord will enter the kingdom, but only those who does the work of the father.


920 posted on 10/08/2014 2:42:02 AM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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