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To: sasportas; editor-surveyor

Yes, I saw that. I had heard and believed the version where “Nicolaitan” related to “lording it over people.” I now recognize the possibility that this is what is called a genetic fallacy, defined in Wikipedia as “a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s origin rather than its current meaning or context.”

Very often this fallacy will surface in language debates, such that someone will pull out the etymology of some contested term and argue from the raw etymology directly to the meaning without asking whether the contemporaneous usage of the term (lexicography) squares with the etymology. That’s an error, because words can shift in meaning quite dramatically from their primitive etymological origins.

For example, if an atheist says “goodbye,” do they mean “I am leaving now,” or do they mean “God be with ye?” Because if we went with strict etymology in a vacuum, you’d have to say he meant “God be with ye,” which of course is an absurd conclusion. So while the etymology isn’t totally irrelevant, it is only one of a number of factors we use to get at the meaning.

For example, there is some evidence that this group may have been a faction led by a real person really named Nicolas. In this case the etymology behind the name could be completely irrelevant.

But even if we say the etymology is relevant, with Nicolaitan, there are multiple possible etymologies. The most common understanding is essentially what ES has stated, that it is a composite that means something like conqueror of people. But that is also just what the given name Nicholas means, and identifying a real individual with that name would not necessarily import the meaning of their name to this narrative.

But there is another very similar Greek word, nicolah, which means “Let us eat,” which has a strong resonance with the context, which describes the Nicolaitans as promoting the eating of things offered to idols, as well as fornication. So the “eating [things offered to idols] cult,” which gives also a very strong reason for it coming under such harsh condemnation by Jesus.

Going back to the “conqueror of people” line of reasoning, I can see that relating to the same context, but not in terms of the typical “clergy versus laity” objection, which presents the Nicolaitans as introducing a heretical priest/laity class stratification into the churches. Another, and I think better connection could be that factions in the ecclesia typically develop from someone’s need to exert power or control over others. This is one of the key defining attributes of cults.

Don’t misunderstand. I am a Protestant, and I believe the sacerdotal system of priesthood is anachronistic, and has no place in the New Covenant. I would , however, not see this passage as addressing that problem. There are plenty of other passages that hit the issue square on, and make for much better authority in the conclusions.

Peace,

SR


916 posted on 10/07/2014 10:24:09 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
Thanks for your thoughts on it.

There are plenty of other passages that hit the issue square on, and make for much better authority in the conclusions.

Makes sense.

918 posted on 10/07/2014 10:48:45 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: Springfield Reformer

Well done and spot on.


935 posted on 10/08/2014 5:04:00 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus in)
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To: Springfield Reformer
I now recognize the possibility that this is what is called a genetic fallacy, defined in Wikipedia as “a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s origin rather than its current meaning or context.”

You have the root word fallacy that imagines the root must define how it is used today.

My, you look nice today.” That sounds like a kind thing to say, right? But imagine if you said this to a woman who then slapped you, screaming: “How dare you insult me! The word nice comes from an old French word nice that means “careless, clumsy; weak; poor, needy; simple, stupid, silly, foolish.” And that French word in turn comes from an even older Latin term, nescius. That word is made up of ne-, which means “not,” and scire, which means “to know” and it related to our word science. The Latin word means ignorant. So you just called me stupid and ignorant! How dare you!” - http://www.rightreason.org/2013/nuts-and-bolts-016-the-root-fallacy/

But in defining how a word was originally used by what it came to denote (like priest ), you have the etymological fallacy that

holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning...A variant of the etymological fallacy involves...claiming that a word should be used in a particular way because it has a particular etymology...The word apologize comes from the Greek word ἀπολογία (apologia) which originally only meant "a speech in defence"...The word began to be used eventually as only expressing regret mainly because words of remorse would often accompany explanations, - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy.

941 posted on 10/08/2014 8:23:29 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Springfield Reformer; sasportas

Playing tag with logic.

The meaning of Nicolaitan is also obvious because we know that Yeshua despised the Pharisees, who were certainly nicolaitans of that time.

The vast majority of Yeshua’s earthly ministry was centered on discrediting and making fools of the Pharisees.

His first miracle was to mock their hand washing pots by making wine in them

[6] And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews...

And from then onward, every time he encountered them he found a way of ridiculing one of their Takanot.

Nicolaitans were then, as they are even more so now, the greatest stumbling block to the spread of his Way.

Those that are themselves nicolaitans do chafe at this, as would be expected.


947 posted on 10/08/2014 12:26:49 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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