Protestants: It's time to come back

The Catholic Church was under no obligation to answer ONE QUESTION posed by the drunkard Luther. Not the first one. He was ignored and rightly should have been ignored. He can pray to God that he didn’t lose his head like so many heretics did in 16th Century.

I doubt you even realize you are doing this, but you flit back and forth between describing THE spiritual body of Christ - which IS what He established through the Gospel - and a physical organization headquartered in Rome and asserting they are one and the same thing. They are NOT. For ANY humanly developed assembly (what the word "church" means) to be a valid CHRISTIAN one, they must believe and teach the same doctrines that have always, everywhere and by all been believed going back to the very Apostles whose missionary fervor in spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ far and wide began the whole thing we call the Christian faith today. Are you unaware that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox HAD the split precisely because the Roman church LEFT the first principles? It's all find and good to say you are "twin lungs" today, but back then each side condemned the other as heretics. All that changed was a relaxing of the animosities, the doctrines that divided them are STILL there.

So, for any group to establish their church today and legitimately call it a "Christian" one, they MUST also hold to the first things, the common bond of the faith once delivered unto the saints. Where can someone find these? In Scripture, primarily, because it contains the direct revelation from God to the very men Jesus ordained to carry forth the truths He taught. The doctrines that ARE Christian are clearly spelled out in Scripture. Additional recourse is found in the writings of the early Christian leaders - though their word are not Divinely-inspired so they must be cross checked with Scripture. The early creeds are also helpful as are various commentaries, study Bibles and careful study of the origins of the faith. The so-called "Apostolic Succession" is one of a succession of the MESSAGE and not of the office of Apostle. All the Apostles discipled, taught, ordained and sent out additional leaders to preach and teach and to establish churches in new areas as souls were won to Christ. They had strict rules for who they okayed to do this and believers were warned constantly to test the spirits of those sent to them or who came presenting themselves as chosen leaders. If they did not teach what the Apostles taught, they were to be shunned and NOT followed. That's just how it was done back then. The "labels" were inconsequential to the teachings. You should already be aware - because it's been said many times - that the word "catholic" wasn't even used until the second century and was used to designate the universal faith as that which was always, everywhere and by all believed, and which was written of in Scripture.

This brings us to today. Can the Roman Catholic church legitimately claim to BE the church Jesus established? Is what they teach today the SAME thing that was taught to the first Christians by the Apostles? Perhaps some of the doctrines, but certainly not all of them. The Roman Catholic church today is every bit as man made as the denominations you criticize here. What makes a Christian assembly a genuine representative of the early church is the message and the behavior of its members. NO single denomination can claim to be the ONE and only church, because each one contains tares and wheat, believers and posers. Jesus' body WILL be made up of the wheat ONLY. It is His bride, made spotless by His precious blood, clothed in white robes washed in His blood, purified, sanctified and as righteous as He is righteous because it is HIS righteousness they are found in. Christ IS the head of this body and it IS already ONE. We are one in Christ REGARDLESS of what a shingle outside our church doors might say, and this is because of the gospel of the grace of God which gives to us eternal life through faith in Christ.

Why not make THAT your goal instead of provoking, goading, mocking and trashing fellow believers, brothers and sisters in Christ, just because they aren't in your church? To the glory of God!

OK, once again, after Roe v. Wade, the only organized faith in this country that did not support Roe v. Wade was the Catholic Church. I have already shown you the proof, but of course you ignore it. Falwell jumped on the pro-life train for political reasons. I’m glad he did with his Moral Majority. Catholics needed help. Falwell also later in his life supported homosexual civil marriages. Falwell was not the good ole boy fire and brimstone evangelical that he’s portrayed to be.

Like any faith the Catholic Church is made up of sinners. But it is still the only Church that Jesus Christ started. End of story.

"Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu - Chapter 41 The wise student hears of the Tao and practises it diligently. The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again. The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud. If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is."

and we should listen to you, why?

Are you laughing at me?

LOL!

You’re right about the Cathars and Waldensians being violent. It was actually a rather common occurrence.

Most Protestant anti-Catholics have never read the following:

Susanna K. Treesh, “The Waldensian Recourse to Violence”
Church History, Vol. 55, No. 3 (Sep., 1986), pp. 294-306.

In February 1199 there was a near civil war in Orvieto when Cathars took to the streets with swords and clubs to attack Catholics. See Power & Purity : Cathar Heresy in Medieval Italy, by Santa Barbara Carol Lansing - who is no apologist for the Catholics either.

There were times when the Waldensians and Cathars came to blows against EACH OTHER as well.

Also, if you look at Table 5.1 in James B. Given, Inquisition and Medieval Society: Power, Discipline, & Resistance in Languedoc, Cornell University Press, 1997, 113-115, you’ll see something really interesting. The table documents dozens and dozens of acts of violence committed by Cathars and other heretics against inquisitors, those they believed had talked to inquisitors or other church officials, and even against heretics who had converted to the Catholic faith. Things like:

1237 - Murder of Raimond Bru
1240 - Murder of nephew of priest of Saint-Paul-Cap-de-Joux
1241-42 Murder of Pierre Capellanus’ clerk
1242, 28 May - Murder of Guillaume Arnaud by men from Montségur
1244 - Priest’s house attacked
1245 - Two sergeants who had arrested 7 female heretics hanged
1245- Imprisonment of Emersene Viguier and her son
1247 - Messenger and clerk of inquisition killed and records stolen
1268 - Murder of Pestilhacus, inquisitorial sergeant
1283-84 - Plot to steal inquisitorial registers
ca.1295 - Nicholas D’Abbeville attacked
1296 – Inquisitors attacked at Franciscan convent
1302, - 11 Feb. Riot against Bishop Castanet
1302, 2 Dec. Riot against Dominicans
1302 Murder of Guillaume Dejean
1303, 10 Aug. Riot against former consuls
1303, Aug. Dominican convent stoned
1303, late Aug. Assault on mur
1303, early Sept. Attack on Dominican convent
1309 Tongue of Mengarde Maurs cut out
1310 Arnaud de Sobrenia of Tignac drowned
1310 Murder of brother of Guillaume Peyre
1310 Murder of unidentified man
1310 Murder of Pierre Marty
1311 Murder of Arnaud Lezerii
1319 Plot against life of Bernard Gui
1320, Sept. Murder of Brother Raimond de Ponte of Mérens

Now, remember, these were acts of violence against those the heretics believed were connected with the inquisition. The acts of violence against common everyday Catholics were even more numerous is not as noteworthy.

"That's the way things were done back then. I don't excuse the methods but heresy is from the demonic so you better believe I celebrate its demise. These were not Christians as you attempted to allude. "

Unbelievable.

This is by far the most disgusting post I have ever seen on FR. It actually takes my breath away.

This is pure evil. I'll pray for you, JPX...and I mean that. God help you.

“So God saves them but isn’t strong enough to keep them saved?”

You’re saying God forces men into heaven. He doesn’t.

Following a sola ecclesia model hasn't created any greater unity than the sola Scriptura they castigate. Yet, if believers actually following the sacred Scriptures through the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit and those God sets up in their assemblies as godly leaders, they WOULD have more unity in beliefs, practice and fellowship.

Why is it so difficult for some to accept that there will be disagreements and differences in non-essential areas and that this strengthens our bonds of faith rather than diminishes them? Our Creator has given us an infinite variety in nature for an example.

How many Catholics use birth control, or have had abortions, or supported DNC candidates? The most Catholic part of the country - the Northeast, includes some of the most progressive states and cities. The Conservative red states generally have the lowest percentage of Catholics. Coincidence?

Many years ago I attended a private Methodist university in the South with about 40% Catholic students. They were the biggest drinkers and by far the most promiscuous. I don’t write that to condemn either the students, or the RCC. Whether one is a member of the RCC, or Running For Christ Cathedral, the fruit reflects the root.

All sins, including sexual ones, are symptoms of the sin nature. You don’t attack the symptoms, you (spiritually) attack the root. If you want different fruit, the spirit must be given LIFE. That is the ONLY way to change a person. You don’t do that with persuasion, politics, force, or even religion. You do it with God’s Word. (Matthew 7:13-20, John 1, 3, 15:1-5, 17)

Paul lays out the process of Salvation in such simple terms, even a child can understand. Note the question at the end of the passage. (Romans 10:8-14) This is the starting point in correcting the sin problem. Far too many priests and preachers are not proclaiming God’s Word, and instead are too busy with worldly matters, religious activities, and playing church. That is why the problems multiply. And when religion becomes big enough, it produces religious leaders and a bloated bureaucracy that is easily and often lead astray by the enemy.

Once a Believer, the answer to the sin problem is simple. You have a new heart, a new nature, a new life given by God. You simply have to act on God’s Word and live this new reality. Its faith in the integrity of God’s Word and God’s Grace, cooperating for your benefit. The chains of condemnation and sin consciousness are broken because the sin nature is reckoned dead. This requires renewing your mind, drinking the pure spiritual milk of God’s Living Word so that you can mature and have the mind of Christ, enjoying the liberty provided by the Truth that sets you free. There is no more doubt, or religious bondage, only certainty and joy of being in God’s family. (John 3:14-17, 8:28-32, Romans 6:6-12, 7:1-25, 8:1-17, Ephesians 1:1-14, 2:1-6, Philippians 3:1-3, Colossians 2:6-15, 1 Peter 2:1-5)

And even if one sins (note the ‘S’ at the end), God has an “app” for that (1 John 1:1-10). Oddly, as a Believer matures in faith and knowledge of the Word, those sinful desires simply fade away. God gives you new desires and you produce good fruit.

Oh that God’s people would continually devour God’s revelation TO the Church given through Paul, especially Romans and Ephesians. Meditate on this glorious Truth until it is firmly planted in your heart. THIS is the answer to the sins that trouble the author of this article. Religion is powerless and frustrates the Grace of God. Only a change of spiritual fathers will end the power of sin over a person, and heal this land.

It saddens me that people think that there is Salvation in a denomination. Apart from Jesus, the Word made flesh, the HEAD of THE Church, the Body of Christ, there is no Salvation. I don’t care what flavor church you attend as long as Jesus is your Savior and God is your Heavenly Father. If God’s Word is constantly in front of your eyes, on your lips, and in your heart, and the Holy Spirit is leading you through your reborn spirit, you are a Son of God, a joint-heir with Jesus, and my Brother and Sister in Christ. (Romans 8:11-17, Colossians 1:11-17)

If ever some pastor, deacon, or bishop placed a tiara on his head and proclaimed himself the Pontius Pontiff of Protestants, and proclaimed homosexuality desirable, abortion mandatory, and demanded that his followers bow to statues of Lady GaGa, and facing Hollywood, pray to dead Academy Award winners 7 times a day, it would be nothing more than an amusing sideshow to me. There is only one HEAD of THE Church - the called out ones, or Believers, and He is IN ME and greater than he who is in the world. Jesus, unlike men and their religious concoctions, NEVER changes. HE IS TRUTH. His Word is Eternal and Pure. Jesus, The Word, and the Holy Spirit always agree, and will endure forever.

There are some that bemoan the diversity among those not subjugated by Rome. I instead see freedom, especially from religious bondage and the often heinous crimes of religious tyrants over the centuries. I can question and challenge the shepherds God has appointed without fear, because any true child of God is motivated by a desire for Truth and Love - not pride, deception, or fear. If an individual shepherd, church, or denomination strays from the Truth, and will not except Godly correction, I am free to leave (and should leave) and join with other Believers in another church, or even start a brand new fellowship as the Holy Spirit directs. The True Church is wherever there are Believers - neither Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, they are one in Christ, worshiping their Heavenly Father in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:21-26, 17:14-26, Galatians 3:28-29)

You want to stop sexual sin and cultural decline, preach God’s Word, not religion. (2 Timothy 4:1-4, Hebrews 4:12)

John 6:63 (AMP)
63 It is the Spirit Who gives life [He is the Life-giver]; the flesh conveys no benefit whatever [there is no profit in it]. The words (truths) that I have been speaking to you are spirit and life.

Galatians 3:1-3 (AMP)
1 O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom—right before your very eyes—Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?
2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?]
3 Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?

"And if you can justify and applaud by praising God for the RCC action in the slaughter of those thousands of people for *heresy*, then since all non-Catholics here are considered heretics by the Catholics on this forum, then you would by implication applaud the same action being taken against any one of us that you all debate here regularly."

I won't put words in the mouth of the Catholic folks on FR nor assume anything, because I hope this wouldn't apply to them. But after what I just read, I'm not sure of at least one.

Back in the day, I used to visit chat rooms on AOL---political and religion. In one of the religion rooms, a Catholic told us that he would happily burn every Protestant alive if he could get away with it. I'll never forget that.

Catherine,

Your tagline says:

“Support Christian white males-—the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization”

I got news for you. That’s exactly why “That’s the way things were done back then. I don’t excuse the methods but heresy is from the demonic so you better believe I celebrate its demise. These were not Christians as you attempted to allude. “

It was an orthodox Christian society which had built Western Civilization (universities, hospitals, the roots of modern philosophy and science, trial by jury, a belief in individual rights, etc) and that was all part of what the inquisitors believed they were protecting. You don’t have to like it, but it’s true whether you like it or not.

You have accused me of knowing the Cathars and Albigensians to be nonviolent, something history tells me is not true. You have further accused me of deliberately lying. Do you wish to retract or rephrase?

You quote an ex-CIA propaganda analyst Catholic, who wrote for a Catholic magazine and founded a Catholic university, citing his assessment of the threat to the Church's power, as your evidence that the Cathars and Albigensians were violent? And you ask me if I want to retract or rephrase?

No, I do not wish to retract. Yes, I wish to rephrase. What I should have said is that there is no way for me to adequately the intensity and depth of your hypocrisy in replying to your posts. That it is not enugh to point out that they are lies and misrepresentation, that they are deliberate slanders and vile calumny, because that does not address the professionalism of your paid responses. The many levels of psycholinguistic manipulations in your phrasings, the calculated selections of biasedly assessed historical issues, the generalized applications of otherwise seldom justified sweeping condemnations, and, above all, the utter diregard with which you hold not only the intelligence of your audience, but the good name of Catholicism itself, which you asociate and pretend to defend with your bottom-feeding tactics - as if it needed such corruption to speak for it.

There, that's what I really mean. Thank you for giving me the chance to express myself more precisely. I appreciate it.

>> You’re saying God forces men into heaven.<<

I said God saved them. Jesus said He gives them eternal life and will never perish.

and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

Now, please answer the questions I asked.

Would say that Jesus was mistaken there because some of those “sheep” would actually perish after having been saved? Also we all know that it’s Satan who attempts to snatch people away from God so would you also say that God was not able to keep Satan from snatching those people away from Him?

Well done!!

And like I said and I'll say it once again in most Baptist churches both in the era you speak of and now the individual church deacons would show a pastor endorsing such the door by that evenings service. No calls to SBC required. Baptist churches of any sect I know of the congregations chosen ordained Deacons have the authority to call or dismiss pastor. But then again in the past 30 years many churches have popped up claiming to be Baptist.

And again I tell you despite what you have read Falwell was a co-founder of the Moral Majority not the founder. He didn't name it that Paul Weyrich came up with that name. The whole concept IIRC didn't actually come from Falwell but from a retired executive named Ed MCAteer whom Weyrich and Phillps knew.

Many actually a vast majority of Baptist churches have always opposed abortion, gay marriage etc. You point to one sect. SBC is as far as Baptist churches go a small fraction of the whole. There are Independent Baptist as well as many smaller groups or associations of say a dozen churches. There are Missionary Baptist as well as Primitive Baptist which is the strictest sect of them all. Not a single Baptist church in my neighborhood is or has ever been SBC. Not a single one ever supported gay marriage abortion etc.

“I said God saved them. Jesus said He gives them eternal life and will never perish.”

So, again, you’re saying that God saves men against their wills. If a man was saved by God, but ten years later decided to become an atheist, Muslims, Buddhist, whatever, is he still going to go to heaven? Now, I know how Protestants generally try to get out of that: Oh, he must not have been saved in the first place! But that doesn’t work, because he believed, he KNEW, he was saved, so either - in your view - men are saved against their wills and actions or there is no knowable assurance to say the least - which many would say is a violation of OSAS.

“Now, please answer the questions I asked.”

Your questions are irrelevant.

“Would say that Jesus was mistaken there because some of those “sheep” would actually perish after having been saved?”

Jesus was never mistaken - but you are.

“Also we all know that it’s Satan who attempts to snatch people away from God so would you also say that God was not able to keep Satan from snatching those people away from Him?”

No, I would say God makes men free, that’s why were culpable for our sins in the first place. And a free man can backslide. A free man can lose what he once was given freely. A free man can commit sin, hold to sin, and even abandon God.

Yeah, insulting someone who asks sensible questions is really persuasive.
Not.

Well CatherineofAragon, do you disagree that the Catholic Church is correct in that they serve the same god as the Muslims?

Vladimir, what I don’t like is the sight of someone praising God for mass murder. Look, you can spin it any way you want, but the right thing to do would be for the Catholics on the board to call out and condemn such insanity.

There’s just no whitewashing it.