Posted on 05/15/2014 12:50:47 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
“I thought the reason you continually try to smear anyone who does not adhere to your new-age doctrine is because your doctrine is not defendable?”
Wow, it takes some nerve for a person who has adopted a theological position invented in the 19th century to call the doctrines held by Christians for over two millenia “new age”. Go ahead, keep digging yourself that hole, though.
Well, when you think that Christ’s second coming has already happened (which of course should have been accompanied with the resurrection of all Christians living and dead), and yet nobody noticed, and somehow there are Christians all over the world who got “left behind”, I guess you can twist yourself into believing anything.
“For example, I am not a preterist: I don’t claim to be, nor do I fit the definition.”
Of course you’re a preterist, all the threads you have been posting to the forum over the last few months are ample demonstration of that. You just don’t seem to be willing to admit it to yourself for some reason.
“I have not claimed anyone was/is “the antichrist,” because there is no single “antichrist” mentioned in the Bible.”
You know very well that there is one “capital A” Antichrist in Christian theology, specifically referred to in Revelation as “the beast”, and in other places as the “man of perdition”. If you don’t acknowledge that individual, then that is just another part of the Bible we can mark you down as refusing to believe.
“You certainly have noticed that the War Criminal seems to know almost nothing about the Bible: at least nothing he can defend with other scripture.”
Well, he’s got a better grasp on it than you seem to, so I would rather discuss it with him any day.
>>>Wow, it takes some nerve for a person who has adopted a theological position invented in the 19th century to call the doctrines held by Christians for over two millenia “new age”.<<<
Which theological position was invented in the 19th century, except dispensationalism, and maybe offshoots, like Millerism?
Philip
“I also believe in a second, general resurrection for the rest of us...”
If you are counting on being part of the second resurrection, then you are saying effectively that you are not a Christian, since all those redeemed by Christ are already resurrected by that time.
The one you like to pretend you don’t advocate, on the very threads that you advocate it.
Prove it! Show us where I have demonstrated that I am a preterist. No innuendo, please! LOL!
>>>You know very well that there is one “capital A” Antichrist in Christian theology, specifically referred to in Revelation as “the beast”, and in other places as the “man of perdition”. If you don’t acknowledge that individual, then that is just another part of the Bible we can mark you down as refusing to believe.<<<
Nope, still don't know it. I do recall there was a fellow named Nero running around in the mid-first century who many scholars and historians believe was the beast mentioned in the Revelation, as do I. But I don't know of any particular "Antichrist" in the Bible; only in urban myths.
>>>Well, he’s got a better grasp on it than you seem to, so I would rather discuss it with him any day.<<<
Then why would he refuse to debate? Why all the aspersions and misdirections? That is typically a sign of ignorance: not knowledge.
Philip
>>>If you are counting on being part of the second resurrection, then you are saying effectively that you are not a Christian, since all those redeemed by Christ are already resurrected by that time.<<<
I have never read that, and I have been reading the Bible for about four decades. Can you please show us that in the scriptures?
Thanks,
Philip
>>>The one you like to pretend you don’t advocate, on the very threads that you advocate it.<<<
Would you please repost that statement with some context so we will know what you are referring to?
Thanks,
Philip
“Show us where I have demonstrated that I am a preterist.”
Ok, this is not going to be very hard, after all, a couple sentences later you wrote:
“I do recall there was a fellow named Nero running around in the mid-first century who many scholars and historians believe was the beast mentioned in the Revelation, as do I.”
This is a preterist belief.
Also on this thread, you have written (in your first post):
“There are many reasons to believe Babylon the Great was the Jerusalem of 70 A.D.”
Another preterist belief.
and
“Therefore, the First Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection happened around 70 A.D.; and the firstfruits of the resurrection—the 144,000 redeemed from the earth—were standing on heavenly mount Sion with Christ, shortly thereafter.”
Again, more preterism.
And in Post #28:
“The difference is, that generation received the punishment in AD 66-70: over 1.1 million slaughtered or starved to death in Jerusalem, alone! A horror of horrors! Truly the great tribulation, as Jesus prophesied.”
Preterism.
“All the things Christ prophesied to his disciples during the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) were fulfilled during the contemporary generation of his disciples (by AD 70,) exactly like he said they would.”
And more preterism.
Shall I continue?
“Then why would he refuse to debate? Why all the aspersions and misdirections?”
Probably because you have demonstrated that it is fruitless to debate you, since you reject any knowledge that doesn’t fit your preconceived, wrongheaded notions.
I’ve already shown you in the past, but if you insist:
1 Thes. 4:13-17
“3 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
No, you know exactly what I’m talking about and are just playing games.
>>>No, you know exactly what I’m talking about and are just playing games.<<<
It is not for me, but for everyone else. Please put your accusations in context.
Thanks,
Philip
“It is not for me, but for everyone else.”
Well, let everyone else ask me then, and maybe I’ll clue them in.
On trying to get Freneau to confess up to being a preterist, good luck! See my post 60 in “The Church and Israel in the New Testament” thread.
That is also postmillennial belief.
>>>Also on this thread, you have written (in your first post):
“There are many reasons to believe Babylon the Great was the Jerusalem of 70 A.D.”
Another preterist belief.<<<
That is also postmillennial belief.
>>>“Therefore, the First Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection happened around 70 A.D.; and the firstfruits of the resurrection—the 144,000 redeemed from the earth—were standing on heavenly mount Sion with Christ, shortly thereafter.”
Again, more preterism. <<<
That is also postmillennial belief.
>>>And in Post #28:
“The difference is, that generation received the punishment in AD 66-70: over 1.1 million slaughtered or starved to death in Jerusalem, alone! A horror of horrors! Truly the great tribulation, as Jesus prophesied.”
Preterism.<<<
That is also postmillennial belief.
>>>“All the things Christ prophesied to his disciples during the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) were fulfilled during the contemporary generation of his disciples (by AD 70,) exactly like he said they would.”
And more preterism.<<<
That is also postmillennial belief.
>>>Shall I continue?<<<
Certainly. I am not ashamed of what I believe, and I am willing to defend it with scripture; unlike you, who cannot defend your beliefs, and appear to be ashamed of it.
>>>“Then why would he refuse to debate? Why all the aspersions and misdirections?” Probably because you have demonstrated that it is fruitless to debate you, since you reject any knowledge that doesn’t fit your preconceived, wrongheaded notions.<<<
It is only preterism when one believes all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, including all resurrections. Postmillennialists, like myself, believe in a general resurrection after the so-called "millennial" reign, which began in the first century.
You really should get your facts straight before casting aspersions. It makes you look petty.
Philip
“On trying to get Freneau to confess up to being a preterist, good luck!”
At this point, it is just funny that he is so obstinate on the matter. It’s as if a poster were running around saying “Joseph Smith found some golden plates that reveal the ‘restored gospel’” and “Jesus Christ visited the Americas!”, but then refusing to admit they were a Mormon. I can’t fathom what he thinks he is accomplishing by it, besides destroying his own credibility.
Most preterists I’ve known tell me they don’t like labels. They prefer to operate incognito, like on this thread, in the shade. I think labels are a good thing, poison I want it labeled on the bottle as such.
“That is also postmillennial belief.”
So? Being both a postmillenialist and a preterist does not mean you are not a preterist.
“Certainly. I am not ashamed of what I believe, and I am willing to defend it with scripture; unlike you, who cannot defend your beliefs, and appear to be ashamed of it.”
Now you’re just being silly, I already told you exactly why I am not interested in debating beliefs with you. It’s an exercise in futility, since you are too emotionally attached to your beliefs to admit any error, no matter how clearly it is demonstrated to you.
“It is only preterism when one believes all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, including all resurrections.”
No, what you are defining is full preterism. Preterism is not limited to that definition.
“Postmillennialists, like myself, believe in a general resurrection after the so-called “millennial” reign, which began in the first century.”
Then postmillenialists are, by definition, at least partial preterists. There’s no weaseling out of that.
“You really should get your facts straight before casting aspersions. It makes you look petty.”
I’ve got my facts straight, and any unbiased poster can easily tell which of us is being honest and which is being evasive. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the simplest of facts about yourself makes you look like something as well.
I have read passage that many times. This is the context:
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Th 4:13-18 KJV)
It appears Paul was expecting to be alive when it was fulfilled. Notice how many times he said "we", as in "we which are alive and remain." Also, an evaluation of the underlying Greek indicates that the word "so" in verse 17, as in "so shall we ever be with the Lord", meant that once they met the Lord in the air, they were not coming back to earth. That is, they are forever in heaven with the Lord.
Besides, that is the "first resurrection" of AD 70, appropriately named in Revelation 20: not the second or general resurrection, also mentioned in Revelation 20. The second, general resurrection is where every knee, including mine and yours, shall bow:
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:10-12 KJV)
Certainly you can come up with a better argument than that in your pretense that I am not a Christian.
Philip
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