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Are the Torah and the Gospel mutually exclusive?
Vivificat - from Contemplation to Action ^ | 26 July 2012 | TDJ

Posted on 07/26/2012 11:34:14 AM PDT by Te骹ilo

Brethren: Peace and Good to all of you.

I've been reading lately several works on textual, form, literary, and historical criticism of the Bible, as well as the relationship between both Testaments, and as corollary, the relationship between the Church and the Jewish people. Today I reached the millenary impasse: for the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah would entail, in their view, a rejection of the Torah; for us Christians to reconcile with them would entail the rejection of the core of Christianity  - without a necessary conversion to Judaism which they don't see as necessary for "righteous Gentiles" to reach "the world to come". At least in the view of those Jews who still believe in "a world to come."

Testing my diamond

During my investigation, I found a letter to Yemeni Jews by the Jewish medieval sage Moses Maimonides to be upsetting. The quote is as follows:

Ever since the time of Revelation, every despot or slave that has attained to power, be he violent or ignoble, has made it his first aim and his final purpose to destroy our law, and to vitiate our religion, by means of the sword, by violence, or by brute force, such as Amalek, Sisera, Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar, Titus, Hadrian, may their bones be ground to dust, and others like them. This is one of the two classes which attempt to foil the Divine will. 
The second class consists of the most intelligent and educated among the nations, such as the Syrians, Persians, and Greeks. These also endeavor to demolish our law and to vitiate it by means of arguments which they invent, and by means of controversies which they institute.... 
After that there arose a new sect which combined the two methods, namely, conquest and controversy, into one, because it believed that this procedure would be more effective in wiping out every trace of the Jewish nation and religion. It, therefore, resolved to lay claim to prophecy and to found a new faith, contrary to our Divine religion, and to contend that it was equally God-given.  
Thereby it hoped to raise doubts and to create confusion, since one is opposed to the other and both supposedly emanate from a Divine source, which would lead to the destruction of both religions. For such is the remarkable plan contrived by a man who is envious and querulous. He will strive to kill his enemy and to save his own life, but when he finds it impossible to attain his objective, he will devise a scheme whereby they both will be slain. 
The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him. 
Daniel had already alluded to him when he presaged the downfall of a wicked one and a heretic among the Jews who would endeavor to destroy the Law, claim prophecy for himself, make pretenses to miracles, and allege that he is the Messiah, as it is written, "Also the children of the impudent among thy people shall make bold to claim prophecy, but they shall fall." (Daniel 11:14). [1]
The allegation that Jesus had "a Gentile father" notwithstanding - based on a Talmudic passage alleging that Jesus was the product of a Roman soldier's rape - I took the text of the letter at face value for analysis and asked myself C.S. Lewis' famous questions: Jesus was either evil, a madman, or who he said he was, the Messiah, Son of God. Maimonides, along with post-Second Temple Judaism denied the third option. Therefore, we're left with defining Jesus within an spectrum of possibilities located anywhere between two extremes: he was either crazy as a loon or as evil as the devil.

(You might be asking why I even care to ask that kind of question. Well, because I care about the truth. I tell people I possess a diamond that I want to share with them, but that this diamond is unique because giving it away will not make me any less wealthy, whereas those receiving it may become as wealthy as I am. Ocassionally, I like to step back and test my diamond for its beauty and hardness.)

Ratzinger's reply

As I said before, I asked myself: is the price to pay to reconcile myself with my Jewish brethren fully and in heart and through this reconciliation, reach the "true" knowledge of the God of Israel, my abandonment of the central claims we make about Jesus of Nazareth, namely that he's God incarnate, the new Moses and lawgiver, Son of God and of Man, and Israel's Messiah?

I didn't have an immediate answer and therefore I prayed for one. God answered the prayer inmediately. It so happens that someone else had asked that question before. Here's how he put it:
The history of the relationship between Israel and Christendom is drenched with blood and tears. It is a history of mistrust and hostility, but also thank God a history marked again and again by attempts at forgiveness, understanding and mutual acceptance. After Auschwitz, the mission of reconciliation and acceptance permits no deferral.

Even if we know that Auschwitz is the gruesome expression of an ideology that not only wanted to destroy Judaism but also hated and sought to eradicate from Christianity its Jewish heritage, the question remains, What could be the reason for so much historical hostility between those who actually must belong together because of their faith in the one God and commitment to his will?

Does this hostility result from something in the very faith of Christians? Is it something in the "essence of Christianity," such that one would have to prescind from Christianity's core, deny Christianity its heart, in order to come to real reconciliation? This is an assumption that some Christian thinkers have in fact made in the last few decades in reaction to the horrors of history. Do confession of Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God and faith in the cross as the redemption of mankind contain an implicit condemnation of the Jews as stubborn and blind, as guilty of the death of the Son of God? Could it be that the core of the faith of Christians themselves compels them to intolerance, even to hostility toward the Jews, and conversely, that the self-esteem of Jews and the defense of their historic dignity and deepest convictions oblige them to demand that Christians abandon the heart of their faith and so require Jews similarly to forsake tolerance? Is the conflict programmed in the heart of religion and only to be overcome through its repudiation?

In this heightened framing of the question, the problem confronting us today reaches far beyond an academic interreligious dialogue into the fundamental decisions of this historic hour. One sees more frequent attempts to mollify the issue by representing Jesus as a Jewish teacher who in principle did not go beyond what was possible in Jewish tradition. His execution is understood to result from the political tensions between Jews and Romans. In point of fact, he was executed by the Roman authority in the way political rebels were punished. His elevation to Son of God is accordingly understood to have occurred after the fact, in a Hellenistic climate; at the same time, in view of the given political circumstances, the blame for the crucifixion is transferred from the Romans to the Jews. As a challenge to exegesis, such interpretations can further an acute listening to the text and perhaps produce something useful. However, they do not speak of the Jesus of the historic sources, but instead construct a new and different Jesus, relegating the historical faith in the Christ of the church to mythology. Christ appears as a product of Greek religiosity and political opportunism in the Roman Empire. One does not do justice to the gravity of the question with such a view; indeed one retreats from it.

Thus the question remains: Can Christian faith, left in its inner power and dignity, not only tolerate Judaism but accept it in its historic mission? Or can it not? Can there be true reconciliation without abandoning the faith, or is reconciliation tied to such abandonment? In reply to this question which concerns us most deeply, I shall not present simply my own views. Rather, I wish to show what the Catechism of the Catholic Church released in 1992 has to say. This work has been published by the magisterium of the Catholic Church as an authentic expression of her faith. In recognition of the significance of Auschwitz and from the mission of the Second Vatican Council, the matter of reconciliation has been inscribed in the catechism as an object of faith. Let us see then how the catechism sounds in relation to our question in terms of its definition of its own mission.
Read the whole essay here.

The man who asked himself the same question and then proceeded to answer it was Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

God does answer prayer and comes to the rescue at the precise moment when one is looking down the chasm on the point of vertigo.

A torn, seamless garment

In words repeated by the scholar - and frequent advisor to the US Catholic Bishops - Amy-Jill Levine, I feel a "holy envy" towards Judaism, more so because without Judaism, Christianity would be unintellgible. I study Judaism just before, during, and after the New Testament era with utter seriousness, respect, and many times, admiration.

Yet, my readings have led me to believe that after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD, Judaism resembled - if you allow me the analogy - a seamless garment ripped and torn at the bottom. I think that the Jewish remnant in the Holy Land also saw the discontinuity because, starting with the sucessors of the Pharisees at Jamnia and through the Talmudic age, the Jewish sages applied themselves to "hem" the jagged edges, cut, tie, and add new tzitzits to the torn, seamless garment, sometimes without paying attention to the discontinuities their repairs created.

As a consequence, Judaism became self-contained, unique, standard, and logically impervious to Christian evangelism and apologetics. This is, for the most part, the Talmudists greatest achievement which in turn guaranteed the survival of Jewish identity throughout the centuries.

These centuries were not not good for the Jewish people as they endured persecution by Christians in East and West which in turn  cemented in the emotions of the Jewish people what they had previously held intellectually: that any claim of Jesus as the unique Jewish Messiah was a non-sequitur, to be rejected a priori at all times, and at all places. For, "how can this man ever be considered as God's supreme intervention when his followers kill, persecute, and often disposses and disenfranchise us." It is a fair question and the answer should encourage in us a deep self-reflection.

Nevertheless, and setting momentarily aside the Jewish people's sorrowful history. as a Catholic Christian I can see that the "ripped garment" missing piece is precisely Jesus of Nazareth, his life, teachings, and redemptive mission. Every fiber, every shape of the missing part fits perfectly to its ripped counterpart to the last thread. That many Jews understood this explain why so many of them accepted Jesus as Messiah - and a crucified one at that - shortly after his reported death. For these Jews - and not all of them were yokels from the boondocks - the Christ-event made sense in the light of Israel's election, the Torah, and the designs of a universal God who wanted to draw every single human being toward himself. If Jesus made sense to these Jews, then there was something to Jesus that can invalidate Maimonides' the harsh evaluation he made of Jesus.

This is so, in my view, because as then Cardinal Ratzinger said, Israel's vocation was oriented toward universality. Judaism after Jesus placed its universal vocation in the back fire, at times because survival was of the essence and other times, well, what's the point? Since God will admit righteous Gentiles into his Kingdom, Jews are free to be themselves while leaving to God the fulfillment of Israel's universal vocation.

Yet, this very vocation uniquely seems to have been fulfilled in a single Israelite, Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore, and based upon then Cardinal Ratzinger's solution, I can conclude that not only there is no mutual exclusivity between the Torah and the Gospel, but that their ultimate intelligibility depends on their mutual dependence. Only in this way Israel's universal vocation can be realized, as the God of Israel is made known to all peoples. This is why so many Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah, this is why Christianity is intelligible in Jewish terms.

Love is the key

Yes, I know that most of my Jewish brethren, conditioned as they are to deny any thought of Jesus as Messiah (and for the reasons we have discussed) will reject my conclusion. Alas, I can't do more.

The rift between Jews and Christians will not be healed in my lifetime, I don't think. However, I do think that the claims of Jesus, as preserved and proclaimed by the Church, make sense even withing the Jewish crucible from which Christianity surged. My faith and my reason are secured, but the problem remains: how do I take the Gospel in an affirmative fashion to my Jewish brethren while preserving both our identities? The only personal solution I can find at the moment is by loving them as Jesus loves them, and as we love ourselves. Once we love with this intensity, the remainder will resolve itself through mutual forgiveness before the God who loves, forgive, and judge us all.
[1] Halkin, Abraham S., ed., and Cohen, Boaz, trans. Moses Maimonides' Epistle to Yemen: The Arabic Original and the Three Hebrew Versions, American Academy for Jewish Research, 1952, pp. iii-iv. as quoted in the Wikipedia.

TOPICS: Catholic; Judaism; Theology
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Whether the gospel excludes the Torah is something that chrstians have been arguing about for two millenia, though Paul and the vast majority say that it does. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the Torah does exclude the "gospel" or any other later religion

What is the "Torah" for you and how and why does it exclude the Gospel?


81 posted on 07/27/2012 6:56:44 AM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo

What is the duty of any Christian? Christ referenced and quoted Moses thus made the Torah one and the same as the Gospel. IF one is ignorant of the Torah they are ‘blind’ as to the simplicity of the first coming of Christ. Leave the blind alone, as some future point in time on the Heavenly Father’s calendar He promises to peel away the scales that blind.

Godly love cannot be forced, bought or sold it comes from within as normal mothers have for their new born child. The first commandment still holds, Thou shall have NO other ‘god(s) before ME!!!! Never, not one time in the whole of the Bible during this flesh journey have the majority been on the side of ‘Right’, and there is nothing new under the sun.

82 posted on 07/27/2012 7:15:36 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: hosepipe; YHAOS; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; ...
Jesus never said read the bible(old/new) or talmud.. or any other lore.. What he said was if you want to know something/anything go to the Holy Spirit..

If one were a student of the WORD of G-d,
one would know Yah'shua many times said it is written
when he was quoting the Tanach.

If one were to use the NASB version of the bible whenever
the Tanach is quoted it is placed in all upper case letters.

The NASB bible is a blessing for this alone.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
83 posted on 07/27/2012 7:28:58 AM PDT by Uri抏l-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Sherman Logan; Cronos

I doubt that interpretation. Remember during the cruxifixion, the crowd, which was not just a hand-picked palace crowd anymore, was going after Jesus’ supporters. They spotted Peter and he felt intimidated enough to deny he knew Jesus. If the mob wasn’t against Christ, that makes no sense.

84 posted on 07/27/2012 7:31:09 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Tzfat

I don’t understand the reference to “eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.” Please explain.

85 posted on 07/27/2012 7:39:14 AM PDT by Gluteus Maximus
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To: Boogieman

Peter did not deny Christ during the crucifixion.

The denial occurred very early in the trial sequence, at the high priest’s house. Peter had followed there from the Mount of Olives.

See Mark 14, etc.

86 posted on 07/27/2012 7:39:19 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

“If you reject that statement, you can still believe He is a great moral teacher, but you can’t believe He is the Messiah in any meaningful sense.”

Not really. Great moral teachers don’t lie about themselves and puff themselves up as something they are not. Great moral teachers don’t give people false hope, or say that they will do things that they are incapable of achieving. They don’t have to resort to “do as I say, not as I do”. If Christ wasn’t the Son of God, then he was a fraud, not a great moral teacher.

87 posted on 07/27/2012 7:41:05 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Cronos; Te贸filo; Uri聮el-2012; Zionist Conspirator; RnMomof7; metmom; BlueDragon; daniel1212
Interesting take by the Middle Ager: He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile

Interesting statement.

Two parts

One: his father was a Gentile.
I wonder what is the source of this slur.

Two: He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess.
This is a complete mis-reading of the WORD of G-d.
but it is supported in the Rabbinical writings:
Man-made Traditions.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
88 posted on 07/27/2012 7:44:27 AM PDT by Uri抏l-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Boogieman

Good points.

Though moral failures of a teacher do not of themselves invalidate his teachings.

My statement was more along the lines of the many who refuse to recognize Jesus as the Son of God, but default to his being a “great moral teacher.” In fact, remarkably few people really criticize Jesus himself, as there just isn’t much there to base it on. Nietzche (sp?) is about the only one I can think of, and he based it on Jesus promoting a “slave morality.” Even Islamists must revere Jesus himself, if they remain true to Muslim doctrine. Jesus is arguably the second most important human in Islam, after Big Mo.

When Monty Python was looking around for a movie that would get attention, they discussed doing a parody of the life of Jesus, which would certainly have gotten attention! After a little research, they decided there just wasn’t much of anything there to make fun of effectively.

So they made Life of Brian instead, about a guy who is constantly being mistaken for Jesus.

89 posted on 07/27/2012 7:50:23 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: xzins
I am reminded of Jesus’ words, I think about Luke 20, “you’ll not see me again until you say ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

I think you are reaching for Luke 13:35.

Yah'shua is quoting Psalm 118:26

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
90 posted on 07/27/2012 7:51:27 AM PDT by Uri抏l-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Boogieman

there is no proof of it being or not being a “which was not just a hand-picked palace crowd” — it could have been a paid mob. i’m not saying it was, just tossing that idea out there.

91 posted on 07/27/2012 8:02:54 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Te贸filo
That's where the debate stands and I don't mean to solve it here, except to insist upon the Christian vocation of Love.

Like this :
Lev 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any
grudge against the sons of your people, but
you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am YHvH.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
92 posted on 07/27/2012 8:04:54 AM PDT by Uri抏l-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Te贸filo
The allegation that Jesus had "a Gentile father" notwithstanding - based on a Talmudic passage alleging that Jesus was the product of a Roman soldier's rape -

This should suggest the Origin of Talmudic writings.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
93 posted on 07/27/2012 8:08:32 AM PDT by Uri抏l-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Cronos

Good point and interesting comments....

I see the Ministry of Jesus as pivoting from his Judaic roots to including all the people of the earth, not just Jews. To me it would have been silly to focus on them only as what is the message here, all of you need to become Jewish?

Many if not most of the Jewish faith do not accept Christ as anything more than a great rabbi, not the son of God that was mentioned in pre New Testament books of the bible multiple times.

When he was on earth he was limited by his nature as a man, when he was crucified and rose again he was free to be everywhere at once, no more limits. Unless the expectation is for him to spread a prior religious doctrine that did not accept him for what he is - The Son of God, then why talk only to Jews?


94 posted on 07/27/2012 8:33:24 AM PDT by 100American (Knowledge is knowing how, Wisdom is knowing when)
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To: 100American
not the son of God that was mentioned in pre New Testament books of the bible multiple times.

Citations please.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
95 posted on 07/27/2012 8:51:06 AM PDT by Uri抏l-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Te贸filo

Reading characters at an equidistant count other than one.

That of course only works with the masoretic text, which uses no spaces.

96 posted on 07/27/2012 9:40:20 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they were.)
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To: 100American

Forget opinions, and read Romans 10 and 11 carefully.

It is all explained there.

97 posted on 07/27/2012 9:43:13 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they were.)
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To: Gluteus Maximus
All the nonsense that the Almighty NOW has no standard of righteousness because "grace replaced th Law" fails to explain ONE simply requirement in the Garden. A simple "Don't eat." So apparently He DOES care about what whether we obey or disobey, now, as He did then.

So, don't eat the fruit in the Garden is acceptable to Christianity, but don't eat pig isn't. Could it be that early Chritian theologians explained things away that simply seemed "too Jewish"? In my opinion, the only reason Christianity rejects the Law is that it does not like the so-called "Jewishness" of it. I suppose the whole "what would Jesus do" idea only goes so far with many folks (or they forget that He was an orthodox Jew).
98 posted on 07/27/2012 10:01:21 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Cronos
do read the article, the whole article and not just the title or excerpts.

Why? Is the title misleading? Is the article altogether unconcerned with the title? Does the author speak of matters indifferent to the title’s content, not either in favor of, or in opposition to the purported subject?

Up to this point, I’ve addressed myself only to the title. Up to this point, in their reply, no one has applied themselves to the title.

99 posted on 07/27/2012 10:31:24 AM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: Te贸filo

How many Jews approach you wanting to learn about Jesus?

Are they looking to convert or learn about Christian theology?

100 posted on 07/27/2012 10:34:14 AM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (It's hurricane season! Yay!)
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