Posted on 07/26/2012 11:34:14 AM PDT by Teófilo
Torah is the first pages of the Gospel? *Sigh*
The Christian Bible is the beginning of the Gospel.
When the messiah (who will be fully human)comes there will be peace on earth.
The messiah will come only once.
All Jews will be Torah observant. Clearly there are those who aren’t.
The Third Temple will be rebuilt.
All the peoples of the earth will worship the one true G-d.
There are many other messianic qualifications.
One must fulfill ALL of the requirements in order to be the messiah.
Well,I did get into the fray. *chuckle*
So which of the several stories in the Talmud about different people with names similar to ‘Jesus’ is the one about the Jesus of Christianity?
Here’s something else Maimonides wrote that Christians censored:
“If he [a potential Messiah] did not succeed to this degree or he was killed, he surely is not [the redeemer] promised by the Torah. [Rather,] he should be considered as all the other proper and legitimate kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. G-d only caused him to arise in order to test the multitude. As it is written [Daniel 11:35], “Some of the wise men will stumble, to purge, to refine, and to clarify, until the appointed time, for it is yet to come.”
“Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also spoken of in Daniel’s prophecies [Daniel 11:14], “The renegades among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.”
“Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd.”
“Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Mashiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], “I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose.”
“How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: “These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time.” Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: “Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them.”
“When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err.”
Hilchot Melachim, Chapter 11
Because there’ll be a huge theological debate and we all know how that works out.
The Roman 'church" was created byThis is based on the assumption that the
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Roman "church" was created by Yah'shua.
Constantine in 325 CE.
That's exactly what He said...Why would you not believe it???
Maimonides lived in Muslim cultures. Many students are surprised he addressed Christianity at all. It is unclear if he knew anything about Christianity first-hand.
I recall shock when I first heard from a well-known Torah teacher that Roman Catholicism (not just ‘Christians’) had killed *ten million* Jews down through the centuries long before the Nazi Holocaust. Perhaps I heard wrong or there was a misunderstanding.
Then later I heard the same number and story from a well-known Torah teacher from a very different kind of Torah school of thought.
It still agitates my mind.
Christianity is a god of another land.
No, the “Christian” Bible is the whole Bible.
YHVH is the preincarnate Christ, and every word in Torah, as the rest of the Bible, is about him.
He is coming back for his own; be ready.
Hey, I'm glad you brought that up...It not only gives folks the opportunity to see that the Bible seems to be another meaningless book to you, but it allows me to show the truth of the Bible...
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
What amazes me is that there are those who deny scripture even after it is posted right in front of their faces...
Or it could have been a local troop of GirlScouts posing as the religious leaders of Israel, eh??? Or it could have been a stranded group of Klingons angry at Jesus for not revealing the location of the StarGate...
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.
My response is that God in the OT never required gentiles to refrain from pork or to keep the other dietary laws. He did, however, require that they keep the Law of Noah. My point is that we gentiles are not required to do so by the Law of Moses.
The early Church was forced to confront the problem of the applicability of the Law of Moses in all its many details to the gentiles who converted to Christianity. This crisis was brought about in no small part by the amazing success of the mission of Saul of Tarsus (St. Paul), who converted gentiles left and right. Were gentiles required to be circumcised? Did they have to keep the dietary laws?
The answer, as set forth in the Acts of the Apostles, is that gentiles were not bound to keep the Law of Moses, but were, in keeping with Genesis, required to keep the law of Noah. This was the first authoritative ruling by a Church council. It was read aloud not by Peter, interestingly enough, but by St. James, who was the head of the Jewish Church at the time.
Once that is understood, I see no contradiction. Do you see my point?
While this may (or may not) be the case, Jesus certainly didn't punish the entire Jewish Nation just because of a few rabble rousers...Jesus was rejected by the majority of the Jewish population...And as such, the Jewish population is going thru a period where the Truth is hid from them...
Would seem (to me) that while most Jews were not present at the conviction and Crucifixion, most did not oppose it...
And as such, I feel that while the group of Jews we not chosen by their peers to be present at the sentencing, they did however represent the indifference of the conviction of their fellow Jews...
Having read through the various posts to this point, three things strike me:
1) There are different definitions/concepts of “Torah” being used. In my experience debates that are initiated without defining (precising) terms usually descends quickly into a pointless and often hostile shouting match.
2) There appears to be the assumption that Judaism is monolithic. While there might be some truth to that today (and, yes, I know there are other viewpoints, but they are very much the minority), it certainly was not true at the time of Jesus. There were significant differences between Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, Zealots, Essenes, and those with whom Jesus resonated ... and, perhaps, others. Because modern Judaism is, essentially, Pharisaic Judaism (don’t take my word for it, consult the Encyclopedia Judaica for yourselves on this matter), the Pharisaical viewpoint - whether of the conservative-leaning variety or the skeptical-leaning variety - is the lens through which all matters Jewish are viewed today. I do not buy into the notion of a monolithic Judaism from which Jesus rebelled or which He discarded as useless.
3) It is evident also that assumption reigns here that the Old Testament (or Hebrew Bible or Tanach, if you prefer) is all about “law” and the New Testament all about “gospel” as opposed to law. If one looks at the words of Jesus quoted in the canonical New Testament - and here I have no interest in dealing with the skeptical opinions of academics who want to debate, ala the Jesus Seminar, which words Jesus did or did not speak - you will find that He assumed no such thing.
These three things, it seems to me, render this discussion pretty much useless.
Sounds theological excuses
Are you then saying that the New Testament is for Jews only? That he does not intend for it to be for all men, not just them?
Don't buy that. God accepts Jews as Christians now on exactly the same basis as anybody else. The Jewish nation is not being punished, except insofar as they refuse to accept the word of God.
[ one would know Yah’shua many times said it is written ]
It was written..... but not by God.... but by others..
The letter kills... but the Spirit gives life.. who said that?..
The bible is useful but not mandatory..
Even the stupid and ignorant can be saved by God..
Seems God does not require you to be smart.. or smarter...
God evidently keeps the smart sheep in the Sheep Pens.. i.e. denominations..
But the dumber ones of us he releases into the pasture.. i.e. John ch 10, Ps 23..
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Didn't say that no Jews could be saved...
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
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